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Normalising Layoffs/Firing

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Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#121

Post by spaceman_2020 »

xyproto wrote: post #99
cyrusshepard wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment seems to assume that 1) employment levels for software engineers is the same in India 2) that the OP has overstated the social stigma of layoffs in India, and finally 3) the current employment landscape that you find yourself in will last indefinitely. Based on this, I suspect it's highly likely the hubris in this comment will not age well.

Regarding 3), I believe that solving problems and creating systems will always be relevant.

Most startups doing these layoffs are not really solving any real problems. Many are wrapping up existing solutions in a better UI/UX. Which might be nice to have in an upcycle, but in a downtrend, will be the first on the chopping block.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#122

Post by [deleted] »

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

[deleted]

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#123

Post by nata79 »

ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

You can fire people in Europe and hiring is by no means more convoluted than in the US.

Typically here you have 3 to 6 months probation period where you can be fired at any moment. Then your rights increase with your tenure.

The other big difference is that when you leave a job, you usually have 1 to 3 months of notice period while in the US that tends to only last a couple of weeks.

Overall this gives people a lot more security and I think we have a much better balance because of it, at least in the tech industry.

Industries with higher turnover (like hospitality) typically only hire employees as contractors so they can fire them at any time.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#124

Post by charlieyu1 »

AndrewThrowaway wrote: post #48
ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

This is just so wrong on so many levels. > If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. Unless it is another economical crisis and nobody is hiring? > In Europe where firing is almost impossible It is called "job security" - if you hired somebody, you "promised" them to pay a wage. If they are not needed anymore, you need to keep on promise and pay a wage. For at least some time. E.g. a few month of salary…

There are definitely companies who spend more during economical crisis. Because everything costs less and it costs less to expand your business.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#125

Post by mathverse »

Bayart wrote: post #106
acatton wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is 27 countries with uniformized trade laws. There was never any uniformization on labour laws. GP made a huge generalization by saying "in europe" while talking about labour laws. It's like me saying "in asia, (something about the labour market)", there is no such thing. Hiring/firing/Employee-rights are very different between Spain and Czechia.

The spirit of the law is generally pretty uniform across the EU.

That might be but it is not a real single market. It is bunch of countries working with a similar framework.

Here i am waiting for more than 2 months for a legal contract because my employer is in a different country and does not have a legal entity in my country.

EU to a large extent is a failure to nurture talent and multiply capital.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#126

Post by wincy »

rvense wrote: post #68
ttoinou wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the probation you need a really good reason and it costs a lot of money / paperwork / worker's right etc.

Absolutely not true in Denmark. A good reason can be something like "we are eliminating this position for strategic reasons", and the only money it will cost you is the three-six months (depending on how long they've been at the company) that you have to keep paying them, during which they are required to work as normal and act loyally.

Isn’t that slavery with extra steps? What if I moved out of the country? This seems bizarre to me as an American. I’d do as little work as possible for that time and be resentful about it.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#127

Post by ttoinou »

Zagill wrote: post #42
ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

Except if too many companies are doing hiring freezes and mass layoffs, who's going to hire you? There's a limit to this and it's fair to be concerned about just how widespread these layoffs have been.

You are comparing situations with different factors varying, I was talking in the general sense that the two actions of hiring and firing are linked together, and you're talking about the current economic situation.

Maybe the employee got in in the first place because hiring and firing were easy. If you made it difficult, the employee wouldn't have been hired in the first place. Then it doesn't matter if you have an economic crisis, the person is out of job anyway. We need to let companies fire employees to survive the crisis, and let newly fired people re organize their life and create the companies that will compete and destroy the current ones

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#128

Post by rob74 »

ttoinou wrote: post #100
tsimionescu wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. I don't know where you got this idea, but, at least in tech, the most infamous 7 rounds of whiteboard interviews stories I've heard are from Silicon Valley, not Europe. The company I work for (a Romanian branch of a US company - and yes, Romania has all the same legal protections against t firing as most of Europe) typically does one tec…

We shouldn't compare big SV companies with the rest of the world though. Of course companies that are in high demand have a lot of people applying at their job and have harder / longer interview processes

So, in that case, getting hired is hard, but getting fired is just as easy as for less in-demand companies? And also, in an economic downturn, the companies are free to fire people, but getting a new job will become considerably more difficult. So I'm afraid I don't really see the "easy to get fired/easy to get hired" symmetry that you talked about in your first post...

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#129

Post by Leherenn »

louistsi wrote: post #83
emoII wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's easy to fire you won't have to be as thorough when hiring because if the new employee doesn't fit - just waste him/her. If it's difficult to fire the company will put potential employees through hell before deciding. I don't think there's any country where the actual process of hiring someone is a legal nightmare

Hiring processes in American companies are still as arduous and drawn out as European hiring processes though. You're still looking at a 4-16 week process, you don't just snap someone up in a week if they're on the market.

It's not necessarily the process, but more the number/type of open positions. When it's difficult to fire, it's very common for people to start with a temporary contract or two before being offered an unlimited one. Likewise, I believe contractors are more common. Basically, anything that offers flexibility.

Also, companies are just more reluctant to open a position.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#130

Post by abracadabra_ »

rvense wrote: post #68
ttoinou wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the probation you need a really good reason and it costs a lot of money / paperwork / worker's right etc.

Absolutely not true in Denmark. A good reason can be something like "we are eliminating this position for strategic reasons", and the only money it will cost you is the three-six months (depending on how long they've been at the company) that you have to keep paying them, during which they are required to work as normal and act loyally.

That sounds similar to redundancy in the UK but much more generous.

It always possible to get rid of either an employee or a role. The problem comes when you're getting rid of a whole department or say 10% of your employees. There are a lot more rules around that.

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