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Normalising Layoffs/Firing

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Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#101

Post by DoingIsLearning »

Test0129 wrote: post #67

> We have normalised firing of people. I don't know about the "developed" countries where people have social security, but for countries like India where there is no social security and stigma is associated with being laid off, it is a very difficult situation. Not to sound crass here but it seems like you're fishing for virtue. Hiring and firing are normal. A company of 20,000 firing 20% of it's workforce sounds maj…

> The field of software engineering is so fungible 20% of employees losing their job is nearly meaningless in the current job market because you can throw and rock and find another seat to warm the next day. It's not like Ford closing a factory.

... In the US.

This feels like those addenda where medical trials keep on showing some clinical effect and people in the comments have to add, some clinical effect... in mice.

The US software landscape is shaped by a unique VC landscape that has not been reproduced anywhere else in the world.

If you have lived through the dot com bubble or the 2008 sub-prime crisis you will also be aware that funding can dry up as quickly as it is thrown at you.

At the moment at least in Europe I still see a hot market for contracting roles but for permanent roles it is in no way what you describe of 'find another warm seat the next day'.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#102

Post by ttoinou »

atoav wrote: post #87
ttoinou wrote: post #11

Firing easily and hiring easily are two sides of the same coin. If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Companies are big and look financially stable because the little ones cannot survive or dont enjoy the same monopoly / legal protections. If a c…

> In Europe where firing is almost impossible, hiring is a very tedious process. Sure you need to vet your candidates more carefully, because you cannot fire them right away without reason (although these law vary within the 27 nations of the EU). But: 1. there are limited contacts. So if you don't wanna have the risk, you are free to make shorter contacts and pay people more so the good people are willing to take th…

I agree with all points ! Not sure how that helps OP's fears though :)

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#103

Post by jlund-molfese »

IshKebab wrote: post #50
jlund-molfese wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would an employee in the tech sector prefer an employer-managed pension? A 401(k) usually allows me to choose what I invest my money in (including bonds), and can be rolled over to a new employer easily. And it’s my money once it’s in my account, not my employer’s money. They can’t require me to work for a certain period of time to get it out, and don’t pay me less to compensate for offering the retirement benefi…

That is a pension. In the UK they're called Self Invested Personal Pension and basically all companies do them now. But I agree they pretty much only have upsides - no risk of the pension fund going bankrupt (would be good right about now in the UK!) and no way for previous generations to steal from the current one, which is basically what all defined benefit pensions are doing now.

Oh yeah, you’re right. In the US we mostly use the term “pension” to refer to the type where you only get benefits after 5 years of service, the employer decides where to invest the money, etc.

Updated my original post to make it a little clearer.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#104

Post by badpun »

spoonjim wrote: post #82

The alternative to normalized firing is normalized career employment like that which turned Japan into a noncompetitive economy.

Are we sure it's that? They had even stricter rules when they were the economic miracle (1960-1990). I wouldn't be suprised if just crappy demography caught up with them.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#105

Post by hamilyon2 »

This comment hits a nerve. I distinctly remember stories of USSR where anyone and everyone was guaranteed a job. People still remember chaos that ensued when that system failed miserably.

In retrospective, it kinda had to fail. Production, the heart of economy didn't have to listen to market forces. Market forces were banned. Nobody was laid off, but this was an illusion.

To paint even more grim picture, in the 1990ths when people were laid off, first time in their lives, suicide and drug epidemic was soaring. We need to normalize layoffs and tell people that that is going to happen anyway and not the end of the world. Companies will fail. This is normal, this is their function, fail small and protect big.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#106

Post by Bayart »

acatton wrote: post #26
soptikha2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience is quite different in regard to working in Europe. How exactly is hiring a very tedious process? Seemed quite fast and easy to me. And btw, it's not that hard to fire a wrong hire. You have few months to do so basically for any reason at all, and afterwards, you can still do it, if you have a good reason to do so.

Europe is 27 countries with uniformized trade laws. There was never any uniformization on labour laws. GP made a huge generalization by saying "in europe" while talking about labour laws. It's like me saying "in asia, (something about the labour market)", there is no such thing. Hiring/firing/Employee-rights are very different between Spain and Czechia.

The spirit of the law is generally pretty uniform across the EU.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#107

Post by listenallyall »

Test0129 wrote: post #67

> We have normalised firing of people. I don't know about the "developed" countries where people have social security, but for countries like India where there is no social security and stigma is associated with being laid off, it is a very difficult situation. Not to sound crass here but it seems like you're fishing for virtue. Hiring and firing are normal. A company of 20,000 firing 20% of it's workforce sounds maj…

I was with you for a while, as I do believe that no job ought to be considered permanent nor anyone in tech should ever be completely caught off-guard by large layoffs or even more personal firing/replacement/course change/etc.

But > you can throw and rock and find another seat to warm the next day

Ummm, nope, not everyone's resume is pristine or has a portfolio to share. Lots of immensely talented people are at companies far outside Silicon Valley, both the place and the spirit. Not everyone can point to some app or site for public consumption, lots of work is on internal tools or programs or DevOps that no outsider sees or knows about, or is protected by all kinds of non-disclosure and IP restrictions. Some great people have an awful boss who would never provide a recommendation. There's a million reasons why getting a new job can be hard, be grateful that it appears easy from your perspective but recognize many, many extremely capable and talented people aren't in the same situation.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#108

Post by sunderw »

ttoinou wrote: post #36
soptikha2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience is quite different in regard to working in Europe. How exactly is hiring a very tedious process? Seemed quite fast and easy to me. And btw, it's not that hard to fire a wrong hire. You have few months to do so basically for any reason at all, and afterwards, you can still do it, if you have a good reason to do so.

After the probation you need a really good reason and it costs a lot of money / paperwork / worker's right etc.

In France, for example, you have 4 months (and you can renew it 3 more months so 7 in total) probation period. If you need more then 7 months to realise you've made a wrong hire, then I think you can spend take a few more months to fire someone and not decide to fire someone at a whim.

Re: Normalising Layoffs/Firing

#110

Post by mola »

ttoinou wrote: post #84
lostlogin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can be fired easily, you will find a job easily. If companies can go down quickly, new companies can be formed in an instant. In New Zealand it is fairly easy to start a company (in the sense that the required paperwork isn’t too difficult). It’s easy to hire people, but firing is hard. Why would ease firing mean ease hiring? Why would companies failing easily mean start ups are simple? It’s not so much that…

Opening a company is not just the paperwork. We should praise companies falling down as they can create the path for new ones to get up People do not need to be treated, they're not little babies

No, not babies, they are fellow human beings. While Companies are not, they are just social tools.
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