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Nearly half of Covid patients haven’t fully recovered months later, study finds

nytimes.com

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Re: Nearly half of Covid patients haven’t fully recovered months later, study finds

#141

Post by sp527 »

tim333 wrote: post #137
sp527 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We demonstrate an absence of association between symptom burden and radiographic or biochemical abnormality. We suggest that the phenomenon of Long-COVID may not be directly attributable to the effect of SARS-CoV-2, but rather the neuropsychiatric insults may play a greater role in its aetiology. This is consistent with ME/CFS, which the WHO classifies as a disorder of the nervous system. There are no known diagnos…

That sounds like a rather arrogant assumption that scientists can't figure what the problem is hence the patients are nuts. It could also be the science isn't that good. I had a girlfriend who got ME/CFS. Before she could race me up a 1000 ft hill after she could hardly walk. That change happened in a few days as a result of an infection, and lasted years. Definitely wasn't psychological.

Did I say the patients are nuts? It's a neurological disorder, not a mental illness. There are structural changes in the brain that need to be reversed in order to resolve it. I had CFS and I fixed it by framing it as a nervous system disorder. There are others out there who have done the same.

No diagnostic markers have been found (after many decades of seeking them) because CFS is a not a physiological illness. Countless millions of dollars and hundreds if not thousands of doctors and researchers have chased after the holy grail of reliable diagnostic markers for CFS to absolutely no avail because there is nothing to find.

Instead, various MRI studies have shown consistent brain abnormalities in CFS patients. Recently, low dose Abilify (a neurotransmitter modulator typically used for various psychological disorders) has shown some usefulness in CFS patients. And a drug called CT38 that targets receptors involved in managing the stress response has also produced strong results in a small group of CFS patients:

> CT38, a proprietary peptide agonist selective for Corticotropin-Releasing Factor Receptor Type 2 (CRFR2), one of two receptors, or pathways, that control serotonin in the limbic system and cord. In response to any threat to homeostasis, corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF) acts via CRFR1 and CRFR2 to control serotonin. When the threat subsides, these receptors return to their normal configuration – unless permanently upregulated by an intense or prolonged threat. This then dysregulates serotonin, leading to the shared symptoms of many chronic diseases. [1]

> “Once the CRHR2 receptor gets switched on, it's as if it is permanently switched on. When that happens, it has downstream effects on the limbic system and serotonin system.” Then, any stressor the person is exposed to – including exercise, heat or bright lights – is interpreted as being a major stressor. Other potential stressors are mental trauma, physical trauma, viruses and toxins. [1]

And what I've noted is just a small sample of the surfeit of evidence that CFS is a neurological disorder. Unfortunately, the community of CFS patients is more than a little deranged and they're still gunning for a simple answer that doesn't make them feel uncomfortable and that's more amenable to some magic pill solution.

[1] https://www.biospace.com/article/a-different-pathway-to-solv...

Re: Nearly half of Covid patients haven’t fully recovered months later, study finds

#142

Post by John23832 »

taolegal wrote: post #118
loktarogar wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I lost my dad" doesn't warrant an immediate "well, I didn't". You don't have to void someone's experience just because you think it'll scare some folks. I lost two friends to COVID. That weighs on me a hell of a lot more than the knowledge that I didn't lose others. It's going to influence every discussion on this forever. Because they died.

> "I lost my dad" doesn't warrant an immediate "well, I didn't" Yea it does when it's used as a rhetorical blunt object to bash dissent in every conversation when people speak about the egregious & fruitless authoritarianism that capitalized on the exaggerated risks of covid. There is a very specific risk profile and treating everyone who's at very low risk as though they're on the opposite end of the spectrum is sim…

Nobody was bashing dissent. The original poster spoke about why THEY take covid precautions, with the anecdote that their wife hasn't recovered, they have a friend with long covid, and they lost their father.

You then willingly entered the thread with "I'm sorry about your dad, but let's not exaggerate based on personal anecdotes." Who accuses someone of exaggerating a death?

Stop making this about your anticovid cause... you received a negative reaction because you were being highly insensitive.

Re: Nearly half of Covid patients haven’t fully recovered months later, study finds

#143

Post by lend000 »

sp527 wrote: post #128
lend000 wrote: post #19

Anecdata: I had what seemed like relatively mild covid in March 2020, but never fully recovered, and I ended up unable to do strenuous or stressful activity without a super fight or flight physical response. I was in my 20's, and originally very active and fit, although I ate a very high sugar/carb diet. I took a lot of tests and tried a lot of things and made no progress with doctors for about 2 years, until I tried…

You might want to look into ANS Rewire. Dan Neuffer does an excellent job of covering some of the (speculative) science behind ME/CFS, which is also known as 'post-viral syndrome'. A number of researchers believe long Covid might simply be ME/CFS. Neuffer's central thesis in ANS Rewire is that CFS is a disorder of the autonomic nervous system. And that's more or less in line with the WHO, which classifies CFS as a di…

Interesting. This is very in line with my experience, and I'll try to incorporate in your recommendations and see if they work.

I dedicate a significant portion of my life to managing the symptoms and optimizing my health now, which is somewhat working, but also annoying. It would be cool for it to just go away completely as you mentioned.

Did you see the sibling comment about stellate ganglion block shot? Not sure if my symptoms are bad enough at this point to risk messing with such a delicate area, but there is certainly a temptation to just be "cured."

Re: Nearly half of Covid patients haven’t fully recovered months later, study finds

#144

Post by dmix »

sp527 wrote: post #129
dmix wrote: post #33

I'm curious if this study refutes or supports this often cited study on long COVID (I can't tell from the NYTimes article): > We demonstrate an absence of association between symptom burden and radiographic or biochemical abnormality. We suggest that the phenomenon of Long-COVID may not be directly attributable to the effect of SARS-CoV-2, but rather the neuropsychiatric insults may play a greater role in its aetiolo…

> We demonstrate an absence of association between symptom burden and radiographic or biochemical abnormality. We suggest that the phenomenon of Long-COVID may not be directly attributable to the effect of SARS-CoV-2, but rather the neuropsychiatric insults may play a greater role in its aetiology. This is consistent with ME/CFS, which the WHO classifies as a disorder of the nervous system. There are no known diagnos…

The study also says females are much more likely to be affected by “Long COVID” than males, just like chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. So they seem like similar tricky conditions.

Re: Nearly half of Covid patients haven’t fully recovered months later, study finds

#145

Post by synecdoche »

bsder wrote: post #38
timr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had it and everyone I know has had it (now in the dozens), including a number of elderly people. Everyone is fine. I recovered in a week, and out of literally dozens of people, I've not met anyone who took longer than that. I'm sorry about your dad, but let's not exaggerate based on personal anecdotes. The stories that get upvoted are the ones that scare people.

> Everyone is fine. I recovered in a week, and out of literally dozens of people, I've not met anyone who took longer than that. Calling bullshit. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-01589-z Anybody who lost their sense of taste or smell took months to recover that. Loss of smell or taste is almost 50% for Covid prior to Omicron. Even with Omicron, it's about 20%.

I lost the sense of smell only the first time I had Covid. What’s curious to me is that that symptom has occurred in me several times before caused by influenza or similar, long before Covid, although not as prolonged (slowly recovering after Covid in about a month). I may be an outlier but I’ve never seen or heard anyone else mention this.

Re: Nearly half of Covid patients haven’t fully recovered months later, study finds

#146

Post by sp527 »

lend000 wrote: post #143
sp527 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to look into ANS Rewire. Dan Neuffer does an excellent job of covering some of the (speculative) science behind ME/CFS, which is also known as 'post-viral syndrome'. A number of researchers believe long Covid might simply be ME/CFS. Neuffer's central thesis in ANS Rewire is that CFS is a disorder of the autonomic nervous system. And that's more or less in line with the WHO, which classifies CFS as a di…

Interesting. This is very in line with my experience, and I'll try to incorporate in your recommendations and see if they work. I dedicate a significant portion of my life to managing the symptoms and optimizing my health now, which is somewhat working, but also annoying. It would be cool for it to just go away completely as you mentioned. Did you see the sibling comment about stellate ganglion block shot? Not sure i…

I sympathize with the desire to find an effective treatment and it took me years to abandon trying. I can’t tell you whether or not you should do the same. I would advise trying the holistic nervous system approach as well as anything else you think might help (that isn’t dangerous). There’s no reason not to try everything you possibly can.

Re: Nearly half of Covid patients haven’t fully recovered months later, study finds

#148

Post by lend000 »

sp527 wrote: post #146
lend000 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. This is very in line with my experience, and I'll try to incorporate in your recommendations and see if they work. I dedicate a significant portion of my life to managing the symptoms and optimizing my health now, which is somewhat working, but also annoying. It would be cool for it to just go away completely as you mentioned. Did you see the sibling comment about stellate ganglion block shot? Not sure i…

I sympathize with the desire to find an effective treatment and it took me years to abandon trying. I can’t tell you whether or not you should do the same. I would advise trying the holistic nervous system approach as well as anything else you think might help (that isn’t dangerous). There’s no reason not to try everything you possibly can.

You had ME/CFS and completely cured it using the aforementioned techniques? I'd be interested in learning more details about your journey.

Re: Nearly half of Covid patients haven’t fully recovered months later, study finds

#149

Post by ekianjo »

orwin wrote: post #106
phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a scary thought more scary than your platitude. In 5-10 years, we might find that everyone that got the vaccine does die like everyone dies.. except they die several years earlier than average.

What's funny is that the narrative early 2021 was everybody getting the vaccine would die within a year. I'm happy to have survived it.

Arent we getting record excess deaths in 2022 or did I miss something?

Re: Nearly half of Covid patients haven’t fully recovered months later, study finds

#150

Post by akaralar »

timr wrote: post #121
throwaway_au_1 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very disingenuous example that bears little relation to classichasclass's original post. They said they know people who have suffered significantly because of COVID and for that reason they are still cautious. You immediately responded "let's not exaggerate". How have they exaggerated? Then you say "It still doesn't give them carte blanche to exaggerate or emphasize scary anecdotes at the expense of boring o…

I have no idea if OP is exaggerating, or even telling the truth. The point is that anecdotes are worthless. Giving anecdotes any level of serious consideration is inherently exaggeration of a niche position. This subthread is now filled with comments taking an anecdote from a complete stranger -- someone they don't know and whose story they cannot possibly verify -- and attempting to shame/attack/villainize anyone wh…

no one is trying to attack you because of an alternative narrative. if you left out the “let’s not exaggerate” part it would be an anecdote of perfectly equal value, because both are anecdotes by internet strangers as you say. people are attacking you because you were highly insensitive in carrying the conversation to a point where in addition to talking about your own experience, you assumed the other person was trying to tilt the convo to their favor by using emotions, and you are trying to devalue their personal experience. we are humans after all and we are not doing science here, you can show some sympathy for a tragedy and make your point at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive.
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