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Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

bbc.co.uk

721–730 of 787 posts

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#721
post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right, but that is not how the law is applied. In a civil lawsuit, court or the government is not the plaintiff or the defendant, and therefore first amendment protections do not apply. It absolutely is, which is why thr First Amendment limits the conditions in which civil defamation damages can be awarded, see, e.g., Times v. Sullivan . EDIT: In fact, Times v. Sullivan rejects this specific argument, saying: “Alth…

You have the public figure rules backwards. Times v Sullivan provides a higher bar when the /target/ of the alleged defamation is a public figure.

I didn't say anything one way or the other about the public figure rule except (1) noting that the heightened standards concerned public figures and not only public officials as had been claimed in the post I was responding to, and (2) noting, again unlike claimed previously, it wasn’t the only Constitutional restriction on defamation liability.

You are correct that it is about the target, its just odd that you read something contrary to that into my comment.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#722
post #628
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defense of Alex Jones here, generally in the form of "it was just speech, it was just one falsehood, goodbye free speech, if I say just one wrong thing..." etc. speaks of a particular trait: Context-free pedantry. These people imagine themselves practicing their context-free pedantry in the workplace and saying something like "Go to Massachusetts for your abortion" or something analogous regarding race, disability, s…

I've never heard of anyone who went on trial because of the violence against the families. All I hear is people keep making those allegations. Nothing more than that.

[deleted]

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#723
post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be acquitted without being innocent. See OJ.

So since OJ got off you assume everyone acquitted may still be guilty? That's a great system you got there.

> everyone acquitted may still be guilty?

The standard for acquitting is reasonable doubt. You're presumed innocent until proven guilty, so in theory you aren't necessarily required to prove your innocence beyond a shadow of a doubt. While it may work differently in practice at times, that idea IS actually a great one.

So yes, it may still be possible that someone who is acquitted is in fact guilty, but the prosecution isn't allowed a second chance.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#724
post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right, but that is not how the law is applied. In a civil lawsuit, court or the government is not the plaintiff or the defendant, and therefore first amendment protections do not apply. It absolutely is, which is why thr First Amendment limits the conditions in which civil defamation damages can be awarded, see, e.g., Times v. Sullivan . EDIT: In fact, Times v. Sullivan rejects this specific argument, saying: “Alth…

You seem to have a good handle on the details of this case law. What do you think will ultimately happen with the case?

For this compensatory damage award, that probably depends a lot on whether the trial judge and later the state appeals court think that the numbers returned by the jury for daamages are reasonably supported from the evidence, its possible either at trial or on appeal for the judgement to be different from tbe jury verdict. (There are also punitive damages to be determined later.) I haven’t followed the evidence closely enough to have an opinion on that.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#725
post #628
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defense of Alex Jones here, generally in the form of "it was just speech, it was just one falsehood, goodbye free speech, if I say just one wrong thing..." etc. speaks of a particular trait: Context-free pedantry. These people imagine themselves practicing their context-free pedantry in the workplace and saying something like "Go to Massachusetts for your abortion" or something analogous regarding race, disability, s…

I've never heard of anyone who went on trial because of the violence against the families. All I hear is people keep making those allegations. Nothing more than that.

Right. So:

- these people had their children murdered.

- jurors have now spent weeks hearing more direct evidence than any of us

- even Alex Jones admitted multiple times that he is a liar, and spreads these lies for money

- the jurors determined that 1) there was harm and 2) the COMPENSATORY damages [0] for only part of the victims is $965 million

- the police are neither motivated, capable, nor often successful at gathering enough evidence to prosecute anonymous telephone or public threats made by cowards who try to make threats anonymously.

YET, with all those facts, you think it is appropriate to FURTHER question the integrity of the victims.

You make very clear that you have no idea what you are talking about, and are likely one of the idiots who laps up the lies from the likes of the defendant.

Rethink your life, and at least stop posting idiocy dressed up as "oh, just asking questions". You are only displaying your inability to think or even to get a clue, not persuading anyone.

Yikes.

[0] compensatory damages are damages to compensate for the harm itself, as opposed to punitive damages, which have not yet been determined in this trial.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#726
post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't answer my question. "Harassment is distressing" might be your opinion, but I'm not asking for your opinion. I'm asking if you can point me at anything in the plaintiffs' claims or their lawyer's arguments or the court ruling that based any part of the damage award on harassment by people who had nothing to do with Jones but just heard what he said, instead of just on defamation by Jones and his associate…

How about you look up the case and read the complaint for yourself, then you can express your opinion on how it's deficient. I don't know how the jurors parsed the evidence and haven't followed the trial so closely that I want to restate the plaintiffs' arguments.

> How about you look up the case and read the complaint for yourself

I have, and I didn't see anything about claiming damages based on harassment.

> then you can express your opinion on how it's deficient

I haven't said anything was deficient.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept you're upset with here is "the rules of evidence". You'll find that in a variety of ways, your freedom of expression is intensely curtailed in a court of law, and you cannot in fact make any argument you'd like. In particular, when you've lost a trial by deliberately defaulting it, you cannot re-raise the issues the trial settled in the damages phase of the trial. You lost, and those issues are now off th…

Imagine being accused of murdering someone. You ask for a jury trial. The prosecution asks you to turn over the murder weapon. You plead that you don't have the murder weapon because you are innocent. The judge tells you you have 5 days to turn over all the knives you ever bought. You don't, because you don't know where some of them are. The judge doesn't believe you. The Dystopian Part: The Judge finds you guilty of…

You are correct that in a criminal case Alex's obstruction of the discovery process would have had different outcomes.

In a criminal case, the prosecution does not typically rely on a defendant's cooperation with a discovery process. Instead, the state obtains a warrant to search the defendant's property and gather the evidence required to build their case. If this were a criminal trial, the police would have shown up at Alex's house and place of work. If Alex refused to let the police search his property, they would have used whatever physical force was necessary to remove Alex and execute a lawful search of his property. Then a trial would have happened using any lawfully discovered evidence. Jones cannot ignore a warrant; guns and battering rams and overwhelming force will compel him to comply.

This sequence of events is not possible in civil cases, because civil courts do not typically use force to compel discovery. Instead, they have only the threat of a default judgement to compel discovery. The state has less power to compel discovery, so in cases of obstruction the recourse to the aggrieved party is different.

The common denominator is that proper trial cannot happen if one party can arbitrarily withhold key evidence from the other party. You CANNOT simply refuse to let the police execute a lawful warrant and expect to proceed with a normal trial. The state will execute the warrant. Similarly, you CANNOT simply refuse to share evidence with the plaintiff and expect to proceed with a normal trial. The state will not bring a battering ram to your home, but it will find you guilty by default.

This wasn't a show trial, and Alex wasn't "refused" a trial. He had a right to a trial to determine innocence or guilt. He chose to give up that right by repeatedly and willfully refusing the comply with discovery requests.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#728
post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Can I cite the precedent of an individual plaintiff winning more than $50MM in a civil judgement? No, can you cite a precedent for someone being ordered to pay almost a billion dollars for saying a mean thing on a blog. You said it's precedented, I was asking for the precedent.

Oof. I'll do the sentence diagramming for you. OP said: "It's not a BILLION. It's a BILLION divided by fifteen plaintiffs, which brings the per-plaintiff number to a high-but-precedented number." Th adjective "precedented" modifies "number". In this sentence, "number" refers to the quantity "a BILLION divided by fifteen plaintiffs". Clearly, it's the per-plaintiff number that OP refers to as "precedented", not the to…

Yes, you've defined what makes the judgement absurd. And because it's multiplicative and due solely to "mean words said on blog", then that leaves sane people to see how ridiculous the whole thing is.

Imagine for a minute if Trump decided to sue everyone who called him a Russian agent on TV or in writing. The award would be in the trillions.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#729
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Courts and jurors are completely fine with finding that the behavior of nutjob B (and C and D and E and F) that are predictable from the defamation are part of the damages associated with the defamation. Do you have any actual cases where that was the ruling?

I mean, it's basically the very core of the typical harms that arise from defamation. Almost always the economic harms that arise from defamation are the result of third parties responding to the defamatory content. If you couldn't incorporate the actions of third parties into the calculation of economic harm, then there would almost never be economic harm from defamation. As for specific court cases, take a look at…

> it's basically the very core of the typical harms that arise from defamation

I understand that this is the opinion of you and others. That doesn't make it the law.

> take a look at Gibson Bros., Inc v. Oberlin College

In that case, there was evidence of communications by college officials saying things like "I hope we rain fire and brimstone down on that store". Also, the college has a responsibility for the behavior of its students that Alex Jones and his associates and employees do not have for the behavior of random nutjobs that have no association with them. So the facts in the cases are different and I don't think the Oberlin case shows a general justification for "damages from harassment" being part of a defamation claim.

> Two other examples, of course, would be the recent Alex Jones cases in TX and CT where the same reasoning also let to economic damage awards...

I didn't see that in any of the actual legal documents in those cases.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>whose life has been ruined permanently, and how? genuinely curious. I hope you're trolling. You want to know whose life has been ruined? The 26 elementary school kids whose heads were blown off by a deranged asshole. You want to know whose life has been ruined? The parents who had to move 5-6 times because Jone's deranged followers kept stalking them and actively engaging in some of the most inhumane, heartless and…

$815k a day ? Wow. I would’ve never thought that Infowars could make so much money. I’ve seen some others in the thread mention Jones’ millions, are his financials available? I thought he’d lied and obfuscated them in order to go bankrupt.

The Sandy Hook defamation cases have put Alex Jones’s finances under scrutiny. - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/05/us/alex-jones-finances.ht...

> A lawyer for Scarlett Lewis and Neil Heslin, whose 6-year-old son Jesse Lewis died in the 2012 attack, presented records on Wednesday showing that Infowars made more than $800,000 a day at one point in 2018 (Mr. Jones said the amount stemmed from a particularly lucrative period during the Conservative Political Action Conference).

> Bernard Pettingill, Jr., a forensic economist and former economics professor at the Florida Institute of Technology, testified on Friday that Mr. Jones “is a very successful man” and that his and Free Speech Systems’ combined net worth likely fell between $135 million and $270 million.

And chasing links... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/02/us/politics/alex-jones-tr...

> Business records released during the proceedings indicate Mr. Jones has reaped more than $50 million annually selling diet supplements, gun paraphernalia, body armor and doomsday prepper gear by hawking conspiracy theories to millions listening to his radio and online show. Jesse Lewis’s parents are requesting $150 million in compensatory damages. More important than money, Ms. Lewis said on Tuesday, “I hope to accomplish an era of truth.”

The $815k/day appears to be the average of a peak reporting period. A more reasonable number is that it was getting $125k/day profit overall and it had one week were it made 6x that amount.

This is still nothing to scoff at.

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