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Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

bbc.co.uk

331–340 of 787 posts

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#331
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I normally would agree with you - I'm very pro free speech - but what Alex Jones did was not just "the wrong words", it was blatant slander that permanently ruined the lives of these people. I understand why you're concerned, but we've had slander laws forever, and this is exactly what it's used for.

Quoted post unavailable.

>whose life has been ruined permanently, and how? genuinely curious.

Imagine losing your child in a mass shooting, and then having someone get up on their soapbox in front of a massive audience and, repeatedly, drum up outrage from their audience towards you. Why? Because they say that no kids were killed in that mass shooting. That it was bogus. Your child never existed, and you are a liar and a crisis actor.

The audience gets angry, hits you up on social media. Googles you, starts calling you. Some people start showing up at your house, harassing you at your place of work. You want it to stop, but this dude on his soapbox just keeps going, getting himself angrier about it, and his audience angrier. They keep calling. They keep hounding you in public. You change jobs, but they find you. You move, but they find you.

You lost your child, but you always - year after agonizing year - have people coming up to you and telling you that that's not true and that you're a horrible person. Grief is a hell of a thing to deal with, but society won't even let you properly fucking process your loss.

That is how their lives have been ruined.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#332
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the poster has misidentified most people defending Jones in this thread as fans when they are more likely free speech absolutists who believe any government sanctioned consequence for speech is immoral. They’d likely defend anyone who received a punishment for this type of behavior, Alex Jones just happens to be the man of the hour

I am yet to see a "free speech absolutist" defend anyone on the left (where's the outrage about Republican school districts banning books?). It just seems to be a convenient excuse for being friendly with fascists.

I haven't heard of that - could you describe the books being removed from schools? Are they still teaching books like 1984, Brave New World and Animal Farm?

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First amendment isn’t under attack. Alex Jones isn’t being punished by the govt. Ge attacked people, they responded back. Defamation law has always existed and people can always sue you for libel and slander.

> Defamation law has always existed and people can always sue you for libel and slander. But a $965 million dollar judgment for libel or slander would have to be justified by comparable damages. That isn't the case here.

Sure it is. The jury literally just found those damages. These aren't punitive damages, they're compensatory. Punitive damages are the next phase of the case.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First amendment isn’t under attack. Alex Jones isn’t being punished by the govt. Ge attacked people, they responded back. Defamation law has always existed and people can always sue you for libel and slander.

> Defamation law has always existed and people can always sue you for libel and slander. But a $965 million dollar judgment for libel or slander would have to be justified by comparable damages. That isn't the case here.

The beauty of the US court system is he has every right to challenge it if he feels it's not appropriate.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#335
post #5

So how were the damage calculated? I get that this guy is a nutjob but how can saying something is a hoax get you a 1B fine?

In this particular venue, damages were determined by the jury (which is not the case in all states). Relevant to that process, Jones took the stand in his own defense, to show remorse and indicate why the jury should find for a lower penalty, and... Did the opposite of that. He lost his temper and managed to strongly indicate he had learned nothing and showed no remorse. Juries tend to take a particularly dim view of…

But these aren't puntive damages, they're compensatory damages, and plainly excessive ones at that. Alex Jones level of remorse has no bearing on the level of damage he caused, and so should have no bearing on the amount of compensatory damages. To the extent that they did, that's an injustice.

These damages are absolutely insane for emotional distress and defamation. The average lifetime earnings of a US citizen are $1.7 million. These damages essentially allege that each plaintiff suffered emotional distress so severe it was over forty times the average person's lifetime earnings. That's plainly absurd.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#336
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I normally would agree with you - I'm very pro free speech - but what Alex Jones did was not just "the wrong words", it was blatant slander that permanently ruined the lives of these people. I understand why you're concerned, but we've had slander laws forever, and this is exactly what it's used for.

Quoted post unavailable.

>whose life has been ruined permanently, and how? genuinely curious.

I hope you're trolling.

You want to know whose life has been ruined? The 26 elementary school kids whose heads were blown off by a deranged asshole.

You want to know whose life has been ruined? The parents who had to move 5-6 times because Jone's deranged followers kept stalking them and actively engaging in some of the most inhumane, heartless and disgusting behavior I've ever seen from one human to another. I'm a native of Fairfield County and have seen some of these assholes firsthand, and it is truly disturbing.

You know whose life wasn't ruined (until now)? The guy who went around harassing the grieving parents and inspiring a legion of paranoid internet tough-guys to do the same, and profiting over $815k a day for over a decade by doing so.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#337
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I normally would agree with you - I'm very pro free speech - but what Alex Jones did was not just "the wrong words", it was blatant slander that permanently ruined the lives of these people. I understand why you're concerned, but we've had slander laws forever, and this is exactly what it's used for.

> but what Alex Jones did was not just "the wrong words", it was blatant slander that permanently ruined the lives of these people. How did it do that?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33183758

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First amendment isn’t under attack. Alex Jones isn’t being punished by the govt. Ge attacked people, they responded back. Defamation law has always existed and people can always sue you for libel and slander.

> Defamation law has always existed and people can always sue you for libel and slander. But a $965 million dollar judgment for libel or slander would have to be justified by comparable damages. That isn't the case here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_damages

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lies are covered by the first amendment. There is a rather narrow exception for lies that can be proven to have harmed somebody, and you can prove that they knew that they were acting negligently (i.e. knew that it would case harm and knew that it was false). Those are very high bars to meet. Beyond that, you can lie your head off. Jones has been lying for decades. This is the first time that it was so egregious that…

> acting negligently > knew that it was false Wrong. The bar for negligence is "should have performed X, but failed to do so". Ex: A toddler dying by falling off a deck is negligence. The homeowner "should have repaired the deck", but failed to do so. (This bar would lead to negligent homicide or manslaughter, depending on jurisdiction). Similarly, a journalist "should have done basic research", but failed to do so,…

The standard relevant in most defamation cases is recklessness, not negligence.

Re: Alex Jones told to pay $965M damages to Sandy Hook victims' families

#340
post #5

So how were the damage calculated? I get that this guy is a nutjob but how can saying something is a hoax get you a 1B fine?

It's not just "saying something is a hoax". It's deliberately lying, for years, for his own profit, in a way that caused significant amounts of damage to the people he was lying about. Should that be free from consequences? No. No, it should not be. And, since there was profit from the lying, shouldn't the damages be greater than the profit from the lies? Yes. Yes, it should be.

These are compensatory, not punitive damages. The only relevant factor is how the victims were impacted. Jones' level of wealth or the profit he gained from lying are both improper and injust to consider in the context of compensatory damages.
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