It depends a lot how strong/leaky the abstraction layer is. For example nodejs and PHP are less leaky then the abstraction layers (frameworks) applied on top of them. So the more layers of frameworks stacked on top the faster it is to get a working demo, but the harder it will be to maintain.
Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software
181–190 of 550 posts
Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software
#182The post is promoting building applications in a loosely coupled but highly cohesive manner. It mentions using libraries when appropriate and not duplicating code. I agree with this but it requires a lead who's good at architecting such a codebase. That person also needs to stay with the company for a long time because they're essentially replacing the "framework" with bespoke human logic. I think many, maybe most, c…
I would like to propose that if your organization has trouble making root cause analysis into usefully actionable information, that their codebase is also a mess. Because at the end of the day I think the same skills at looking at the interface of human and process are required for successful decomposition of logic to soften the interface between human and technology.
Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software
#183That brings up the old debate between framework vs library. My personal conclusion had been don't use frameworks, rather use libraries.
I am getting bit in the butt right now for using the ionic framework for building a multi-platform mobile app. If I want to build a mobile app in JS, but not use a framework (ionic/cordova/react native), how do I proceed? While I admit framework-driven cross platform mobile apps are bad, even native code is vulnerable to OS updates shifting the ground from underneath them. How do you use a library in mobile app dev?
Surely in this situation a framework is pretty much your only choice?
Trying to do this yourself would be very complex and stop you from writing your actual app?
Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software
#184I will just sit over here nodding along and not making any eye contact with anyone who mentions unit testing frameworks...
Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software
#185Here I was thinking this was a knock against the Framework laptop offering dho
Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software
#186I'm experiencing this with Laravel. I'm stuck on 5.2 while they're on v9 now because the author thought it would be a good idea to arbitrarily change some method signatures because he regretted his decisions earlier, while not providing any additional value and I don't have the time to hunt all these down and refactor everything, and I feel unmotivated when he's made it clear he's a bad steward. He refused semver for…
Stuck on Zend Framework 1 :D
Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software
#187To put it simply, this reflects an amateur understanding of frameworks. I know where the author is coming from, because I've been there/done that/tried that. It sounds nice on paper, but experience has shown that this is a poor way to approach software development. I see this kind of mindset with developers who think only about code, and not about solving problems at scale with other people.
Totally agree. Hiring is the big one for me.
As a business owner, you need to be able to easily find new developers to slot into your team who can get up to speed quickly.
This is much more easily done when your app is something like Rails, Django or Laravel.
Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software
#188I'm experiencing this with Laravel. I'm stuck on 5.2 while they're on v9 now because the author thought it would be a good idea to arbitrarily change some method signatures because he regretted his decisions earlier, while not providing any additional value and I don't have the time to hunt all these down and refactor everything, and I feel unmotivated when he's made it clear he's a bad steward. He refused semver for…
There is no reason to be stuck on a previous version of Laravel. With the help of rector, it should be an afternoon's work to upgrade. https://github.com/rectorphp/rector
I will be astonished if that works, especially with all the nonstandard junk I've done to my codebase, but I will give it a whirl. Thank you, didn't know about this.
I did see a paid version of something similar before but never tried it.
Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software
#1891. Every sufficiently complex framework-free application contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a framework. 2. If you have a talented team, that half of a framework can be much better than using a one-size-fits-all framework that is popular because it used to be lean and mean with a small surface area, but has grown over time to do everything for everyone, becoming a com…
> 1. Every sufficiently complex framework-free application contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a framework. After 25 years of experience writing software I can honestly say I have encountered many people that agree with this, and perhaps all of them (every single one) have not actually experienced writing an application without a framework. This sentiment sounds correc…
Sometimes I stated writing a web app with Sinatra, which is about the less frameworkish thing you can do in Ruby unless you are also writing your own router.
I regularly end up having to
1. Either write my own code to query the db and build Ruby objects from the response and viceversa OR use ActiveRecord.
2. Same thing about managing the database schema. Either my own code or someone else's. So why not Rails' well tested one?
3. Organize the code base in some way that makes sense.
4. Write my own code to manage tests OR use rspec / capibara (OK, they are not part of a framework but they are a large dependency)
In the end I always regret I didn't use Rails from the beginning because I end up spending a lot of time doing useless takes. Keep in mind that I do that for my own projects in my free time. 99% of the times my customers decide what to use (Rails, Django, Phoenix.)
Re: Using a framework will harm the maintenance of your software
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
13 years into my professional career I'm still seeing Spring everywhere.
Agreed - I think most programming language communities have settled on one major framework (though there are plenty of other smaller ones) and they've survived. Spring: June 2003 Rails: August 2004 Django: July 2005 Symfony: October 2005
Symfony is actually more like several different frameworks under the same name. Some of our projects are stuck with Symfony 1 and upgrading them to the latest version is aking to switching the frameworks because they have almost nothing in common.