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How Doctors Die

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121–130 of 184 posts

Re: How Doctors Die

#121

The CPR example that's used throughout the article is a bit weird, isn't it? Isn't CPR performed when someone has no heartbeat? What does it matter if you crack their ribs? It's only painful if the person survives. I'm not debating whether people should attempt to prolong their lives with aggressive chemo, just picking a nit.

If I was in an accident or an illness today -- I'd want them to crack my ribs and so on. In 50 years or so, when I'm 80 and in poor health I'm not sure I'd want the same thing.

Yeah that's the author's point. Chronically ill or terminally ill patients receiving heroic care, not an otherwise healthy 30 year old who has an acute illness.

If you're 80 and in poor health, recovery from broken ribs is likely to be extremely difficult and painful.

Re: How Doctors Die

#122
post #116
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The abstract of that paper underscores my point that if you've thought about it you can predict better what creates happiness. I don't agree that only by reading "studies about biases in affective forecasting" can you be good at predicting what makes you happy. I know if I eat good food with good friends or family I'll be happy. I've never read that in a study, but it works every single time with me. I know plenty of…

I don't think reading studies is the only way either, but I don't think most of us have questioned what makes us happy outside of soceity's default settings (money/fame/toys/vacations). People make all sorts of tradeoffs which are non-optimal: * Extra commute to a better job with $XX,XXX more for +1 hour/day of travel (less time for good food with family/friends) * Move away from good family/friends to pursue better…

In case people think kalid is making it up, the first one is the 'commuting paradox': http://ftp.iza.org/dp1278.pdf (or http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_08/b3921127.... )

Re: How Doctors Die

#123
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free or not, it seems to work pretty well for the citizens there. You don't have a sizable portion of the population filing bankruptcy over medical bills and they haven't gone bankrupt like Greece. Something Sweden is doing is right.

Greece has socialised healthcare, as do the rest of the European countries circling the drain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Greece It's worth noting that the US health model isn't a free-market system - the state links health care to employment, which distorts the market away from individual private health ownership, and creates patterns that make it easy for costs to creep up. The US health care model…

The state does a lot of other things too, like setting the ratio of a GP's pay to a specialist's pay to something much higher than in other countries, and letting pharmaceutical companies charge whatever they want in the US market but banning the re-importation of drugs from companies where they're sold far more cheaply.

Re: How Doctors Die

#124
post #6

I was in Best Buy earlier today and the sales guy who was trying to sell me a TV reminded me a lot of the doctors/residents I was dealing with during a few weeks I spent caring for a family member at Mass General Hospital a couple years ago. I don't think they do it consciously, but doctors try to sell you on their philosophies for healthcare. But it doesn't matter. You're sitting in a small room with dim lights and…

I don't think they do it consciously, but doctors try to sell you on their philosophies for healthcare.

No, doctors try to make you as fully aware as possible of the options available to you, so that you or your heirs don't turn around and sue them later for 'withholding information that could have saved your life' or something along those lines. Arguably, these suits are motivated in part by the need to defray the extremely high costs of care and pushing back at the physician or caregiver about the quality of clinical care is a powerful negotiating strategy because it plays well to a jury.

Re: How Doctors Die

#125
post #21

Tonight I will tell the mother of our child that if I reason in any way that resembles this article she should slap me in face and tell me to fight for my life. For my daughter and my own sake. In Sweden medical care is free. I can fight as long as I want without them getting in trouble. I also suspect I should fight so hard as if the illnes is truly terminal I will end sooner in flames, not later. I want all the tub…

In Sweden medical care is free. I can fight as long as I want without them getting in trouble.

I thought Sweden had committees to decide on what standards of care would be provided or not, preventing you from making the mistakes discussed in the article?

EDIT: Also, remember that the US government spends more per capita paying for people's health care than Sweden, but manages to spend that huge amount of money on only poor and old people who don't have employer-provided health care.

Re: How Doctors Die

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re:saddling their family with huge expenses, this is a fairly unique problem in 1st world healthcare situations, in that it mainly applies to people in the US. In most other developed nations healthcare and bankruptcy do not go hand in hand.

But the money is just as wasted no matter who pays it.

That's true of the actual cost of the service. For the 1000% markup that U.S. hospitals take, it's more arguable.

Re: How Doctors Die

#127
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free or not, it seems to work pretty well for the citizens there. You don't have a sizable portion of the population filing bankruptcy over medical bills and they haven't gone bankrupt like Greece. Something Sweden is doing is right.

Greece has socialised healthcare, as do the rest of the European countries circling the drain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Greece It's worth noting that the US health model isn't a free-market system - the state links health care to employment, which distorts the market away from individual private health ownership, and creates patterns that make it easy for costs to creep up. The US health care model…

How is the state linking health care to employment?

My understanding is that health care is linked to employment because of the adverse selection problem that occurs in a free market of individual health insurance. Can you elaborate on why you consider this to be the government's fault?

Re: How Doctors Die

#128
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free or not, it seems to work pretty well for the citizens there. You don't have a sizable portion of the population filing bankruptcy over medical bills and they haven't gone bankrupt like Greece. Something Sweden is doing is right.

Greece has socialised healthcare, as do the rest of the European countries circling the drain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Greece It's worth noting that the US health model isn't a free-market system - the state links health care to employment, which distorts the market away from individual private health ownership, and creates patterns that make it easy for costs to creep up. The US health care model…

The EU countries that are not circling the drain also have socialized healthcare, for the most part. Healthcare is a driver of public sector costs, but hardly the only one.

Re: How Doctors Die

#129
post #14

This is obviously a very personal topic, but I can't help but ask whether medecine benefits from people undergoing "futile care"? Are some diseases only treatable today because 20 years ago someone went through all the crap? The whole thing reminds me of the average mid-90s movie Phenomenon. I could always understand Travolta's character's reasoning, but I still thought it was selfish.

I think there are examples of what you're saying. I remember reading in "The Emperor Of All Maladies", by Siddharta Mukherjee, about experimental chemotherapy treatments that initially only extended the patient's life by 6-12 months. Later, as science advanced, combining these with new therapies greatly increased the survival rate.

But in the end, it is an individual choice. There will always be some who choose to fight no matter what (and they should be aware of their chances) and there will be others who prefer to let go.

Re: How Doctors Die

#130
post #120

What are the best ways to make our preferences to our loved ones clear? Is it sufficient enough to have a living will, for example? Are there documents out there that I should be carrying in my wallet, and do paramedics seek these documents out in an emergency?

> What are the best ways to make our preferences to our loved ones clear?

Tell them. I would recommend going through scenarios with them. Everyone thinks of the persistent vegetative state, but it's very unlikely you'll end up in one. It's more likely you'll be days away from death and passed out in a haze of exhaustion and morphine, with a ventilator doing little more than prolonging this scenario. Do you want the ventilator removed? Do you want CPR if you're hospitalized for a terminal condition? What if you're hospitalized for a non-terminal condition?

> Is it sufficient enough to have a living will, for example?

It sure helps, so do that. But also make sure to designate one of your loved ones in particular as your power of attorney. Make sure it's someone who understands and is capable of carrying out your wishes. That person will stay in close contact with health care professionals and has the legal right to make any and all decisions should you be incapacitated. In my limited experience, no one even looks at the living will if there's someone with clear power of attorney telling them what to do.

This person has an even more important job, at least in the American health care system: they're often the only one who talks to all the doctors and has the big picture. If you're seeing five different specialists, and they're all talking about their own specialties, no one is necessarily in charge of the big picture. In the outpatient world you have a primary care doctor, but when you're hospitalized, this guy's out of the picture. There is probably a hospitalist in charge of your care, but just like the nurses, the hospitalists rotate on shifts, and don't really coordinate with specialists so much as just trying to keep you alive. You need someone to be power of attorney, and to take the job seriously. One of the striking things, to me, about Steve Jobs' biography was that even for him, this was true--his wife was the one coordinating the doctors and keeping in charge of the big picture.

> Are there documents out there that I should be carrying in my wallet, and do paramedics seek these documents out in an emergency?

No. I've had paramedics at my house for my dad twice, and they never looked in his wallet. On the other hand, I was there both times.

The job of a paramedic is to stabilize you, gather whatever information they can, and take you to the ER. They probably don't give a shit about your wallet or your cell phone. Whatever procedure there is for identifying someone's next of kin and finding their advance directives, it's done in the hospital. Most of the time they just ask you, if you're conscious, and they ask whoever is physically with you at the time. They would only resort to searching you and your effects if you were completely alone, or if no one around you knew anything or anyone. So designate your power of attorney and designate that person as your emergency contact at work. If you don't live with that person, make sure a neighbor or roommate or someone else you live with or close to has that person's number programmed into their phone and knows to contact them. You want a person you trust, not just a tattoo or bracelet or document, in charge here.

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