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Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

blog.jpl-consulting.com

131–140 of 143 posts

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#131
Well the problem is not about outsourcing to India, but outsourcing to people who are not really programmers to begin with. Almost 80% of my classmates ended up in software outsourcing companies like this. Guess what? We didn't learn computer science or any meaningful programming in our classes, ever (we actually studied biotech). Almost none of those guys have probably ever typed a single line of code until they were hired. They're just put through some intensive 2 month training where they suddenly magically learn programming (most of these people barely passed every exam they've ever encountered in their life, btw). I'd say 1 in 10 of those people actually cared to learn stuff as opposed to just currying favor with the TLs and being dead-weight in the groups. But the ones who do the work seem to be universally unappreciated thanks to rotten corporate politics. I've seen meetings progress in these teams and a bunch of stoned school kids have probably had much better luck deciding on their agenda than these people.

Does it mean Indians are not smart? Of course it doesn't! It's just that most Indians who actually are smart either transport themselves to the States or end up in the Indian branches of companies like Microsoft or Oracle. Only the absolute bottom rung of barely-competent people end up in software outsourcing companies and that is why you get such POSes out of them. And don't even get me started on the call-center recruits!

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#132
post #72
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's his point. Outsourcing doesn't eliminate your responsibility as a customer to participate in the development process -- it just shifts part of the labor to another entity. Telling an outsourcer "do X for me", where X isn't a well defined thing (ie. run a warehouse, manage windows servers, etc) is going to be a disaster. What does "add a shopping cart of my site" mean? Do you want to figure out sales ta…

Any developer worth their salt would come back with those questions, and work with you to hammer out a spec that they know how to implement.

Sure, and any project manager worth his salt will ensure that the vendor does the minimum amount of work possible to fulfill the contract.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#133
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you would like to hire a decent shop, there are boutiques and larger firms available, but they will charge $40-50/hour, not $15. And at that point it's just easier to hire local developers. I just don't get the push to hire cheap people. Even if you do find someone who is a rock star in the Philippines for cheap they might work for 3-6 months before job hopping again. Any sizable business is going to have systems…

And at that point it's just easier to hire local developers. No it isn't. Even if you're in the Bay Area, the local talent pool is small, as demand outweighs supply. If you're not Google, or Facebook, or a startup with the potential of being the next Google or Facebook, then you'll get scraps.

There is a wide continuum between what the Googles of the world hires and 'scraps.'[1] You're also falling into the all developers are on HN and live in SV trap. What most businesses would do best with is to hire a small team of good devs who can learn the business and do more than just development. This will require more up front work from the business, but will get the project (and others) complete much easier in the long run.

[1] I've never interviewed at any of those so maybe I'm scraps. Every company I've worked for though is still using my software internally to make them better than their competitors.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#134
post #52

Look around you and you will find that most American companies hire lots of Indians as programmers. Do you think that the guys who ended up coming to America suddenly transmogrified in to competent programmers during their flight across the ocean? Do you think that those Indian engineers who decided to stay back and work in India are any less competent than the ones who took the flight? Having worked in both India an…

I imagine the top-shelf Indian programmers are in greater quantities abroad than at home. From my experience, the ones that choose to stay back are already in or on course to manage bigger and better things with the salary to match. The ones working abroad are building up experience and war chest or possibly looking to migrate. But the ones that never make it out probably aren't that great.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#137
I don't think most US dev firms (and programmers that work for them - and independantly for that matter) don't realize the reality of the situation. I have contacted firms to build my project for 6 months in an attempt to find a firm to build my very specific project. I received quotes anywhere from $15k-$75k one at $250k (that firm said it charges that amount for any project they havent attempted in the past). Most were in the $30k range (because I specified that was my budget). I specified a budget simply because I discovered that the firms were giving bids a little higher than my budget.

So, when I budgeted $25k they would come in at $28k, etc. What did I learn from the process? None of them had a clue as to what I wanted despite my having 20 page build sheets, exact specifications of how it would work, etc. And the amazing thing is that this project is a version of what has been around for 10 plus years. Decided to finally use a firm in the bay area that outsources and that isnt going smoothly either.

As another example, look at the portfolio of the guy who blogged about outsourcing in the original post. Does he appear to have skills. Not from his portfolio. But he thinks he does. Don

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#138
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that he won't. There seems to be a strong societal and cultural pressure working against people that want to go into business for themselves. My Dad thinks I'm a bonehead for spending my time at startups and such even though I've tried explaining how working at a large corporation can suck your soul out. I'm pretty sure its not just my Dad and immediate family.

Isn't that little anecdotal? Yes agreed there is, social bias against people who want to do start up. But I see many people coming up against that and starting up their own startups. Agreed majority are still sweating in IT services, but we don't expect them to do startups anyways. In fact, If OP was able to hire a single guy who is good and works remotely, that single guy is 100% startup material (otherwise, he woul…

Actually, my guy was employed at a big IT shop (Microsoft, not an outsourcing shop). He quit since he felt he was stagnating.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#139
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to outsource to India, you need to find a company that hires super stars. Super stars in India demand a salary of Rs50,000 to Rs 100,000 a month. Which is still quite less from international point of view: its about $1000 to $2000 a month. A company hiring them will bill you a minimum of $20-30 per hour. Usually more like $40-45 per hour. If you go with a company that is billing you less than that from In…

It is less from Western point of view not from international. I'm sure that in Latin America and Eastern Europe prices are quite similar and time zone differences are more acceptable. India lose in this price range because of cultural differences as well. Usually those are small details like matching Christian and/or international holidays (therefore no conflicting days off) but sum of those details are really signif…

An acquaintance had good experience with Bulgaria. It was a small outfit, just 5 people to match another 4 people working in US. American company was their only customer.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#140
post #69
post #52

Look around you and you will find that most American companies hire lots of Indians as programmers. Do you think that the guys who ended up coming to America suddenly transmogrified in to competent programmers during their flight across the ocean? Do you think that those Indian engineers who decided to stay back and work in India are any less competent than the ones who took the flight? Having worked in both India an…

The suck in outsourcing doesn't come from the location you outsource to. It comes from hiring bottom of the barrel programmers embedded within a large bureaucracy.

And some typical boys club culture clash issues with accountability and honesty
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