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Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

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Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#51

Post by cycomanic »

endisneigh wrote: post #4

I’m unconvinced that inequality matters. A better set of questions would be one like: how much does your parents (lack of) success predict your own? How likely are you to attain some arbitrary yet desirable standard of living, etc. Inequality is related to these things but doesn’t necessarily block them.

There is some interesting models that show that equality is essentially a phase transition. Once you go beyond a level of inequality it becomes completely unequal (concentrated in essentially one actor) unless worked against [1] . I would argue it follows that those societies become also socially immobile, because one actor controls everything.

[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-inequality-ine...

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#52

Post by cycomanic »

malandrew wrote: post #32
endisneigh wrote: post #4

I’m unconvinced that inequality matters. A better set of questions would be one like: how much does your parents (lack of) success predict your own? How likely are you to attain some arbitrary yet desirable standard of living, etc. Inequality is related to these things but doesn’t necessarily block them.

I would go a step further and say it’s a feature and not a bug. There are no robust ecosystems in nature where there is equality between all members of that system. The most robust ecosystems are those where you have the greatest diversity of species which correlates with inequality between them. Personally I don’t see how a modern society at scale could ever be equal and fiction. Equality really only works locally a…

I would be careful drawing analogies from nature. There is no support that shows that there is any equivalence between diversity and economic equality. On top of that if you believe it is valid draw parallels from nature, you need to explain why there should be private property, as no such concept exist in nature (as well as many of the other rules we quite happily accept).

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#53

Post by MrJohz »

malandrew wrote: post #32
endisneigh wrote: post #4

I’m unconvinced that inequality matters. A better set of questions would be one like: how much does your parents (lack of) success predict your own? How likely are you to attain some arbitrary yet desirable standard of living, etc. Inequality is related to these things but doesn’t necessarily block them.

I would go a step further and say it’s a feature and not a bug. There are no robust ecosystems in nature where there is equality between all members of that system. The most robust ecosystems are those where you have the greatest diversity of species which correlates with inequality between them. Personally I don’t see how a modern society at scale could ever be equal and fiction. Equality really only works locally a…

I don't think many people are claiming that the goal should be "no inequality", and that's certainly not what one sees in Europe, so I don't think that argument is relevant.

Clearly society at large can still function in Europe with reduced inequality compared to America.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#54

Post by xeyownt »

malandrew wrote: post #32
endisneigh wrote: post #4

I’m unconvinced that inequality matters. A better set of questions would be one like: how much does your parents (lack of) success predict your own? How likely are you to attain some arbitrary yet desirable standard of living, etc. Inequality is related to these things but doesn’t necessarily block them.

I would go a step further and say it’s a feature and not a bug. There are no robust ecosystems in nature where there is equality between all members of that system. The most robust ecosystems are those where you have the greatest diversity of species which correlates with inequality between them. Personally I don’t see how a modern society at scale could ever be equal and fiction. Equality really only works locally a…

I rather see the opposite. A society cannot live long if it has too much inequality. From inequality comes pressure, that forces the society to adapt or break.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#55

Post by the_third_wave »

anonyme-honteux wrote: post #30

Quoted post unavailable.

Ǹo, RACISM is not the answer to this question, nor to many other questions. What RACISM there is in the US is found in Europe as well, there is plenty of antisemitism in the USA (up to and including in the highest levels of the administration) so even in that respect the difference is marginal at best. The demand for RACISM far outstrips the supply of it which is made visible by the multitude of fake RACISM cries by those who wish to profit from it, very often at venues which can be assumed to harbour the least racism - universities, sports teams, the entertainment world, etc. This is being fuelled by a media which is intent on driving a narrative of increasing RACISM [1,2], part of the political establishment who grift on RACISM to gain voters, activist teachers who drive the same rhetoric as the media and use fake or lopsided sources - 1619 project, Howard Zinn, etc - and academia.

Also, writing RACISM in all capitals is quite annoying, almost as if you're writing agitprop [3].

[1] https://www.newsweek.com/media-creating-false-perception-ris...

[2] https://nypost.com/2021/04/15/media-pushes-false-narrative-o...

[3] https://www.britannica.com/topic/agitprop

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#56

Post by xeyownt »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #50

If compared to the US, isn't Europe spending significantly less on defense? I guess that Europe will spend more now. I think a big defense budget is a factor, the money spent on military hardware doesn't trickle down through the economy, as far as I know.

You mean that US has more inequality than EU because they spend more on defense?

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#57

Post by xeyownt »

nine_k wrote: post #19
gedy wrote: post #13

I think more important is the reduction in poverty world-wide. "Inequality" has always felt a bit like moving the goalpost.

It's very easy to make (almost) everyone equally poor; Communist regimes tried that, mostly with disastrous results. I don't care about income inequality too much. I care about the two extremes: * How bad is the situation of the poorest, can they still live with any decency if they honestly choose to. A society should care about that, if not due to its member being kind and humane, then just due to reasons of self-pr…

Well I do.

I cannot imagine any worthwhile society where someone would be entitled to earn 1000 times the average. 10 times is certainly a common-sense maximum. If his only motivation for contributing to the society is to be in the 10-1000 range, I'm pretty sure the society will not miss much his contribution.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#58

Post by cycomanic »

murderfs wrote: post #48
thinkcontext wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to your question is in the US there is less economic mobility than most of its peer countries. https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/02_econ...

Economic mobility studies are interesting, but there's a fundamental issue with the way all of them look at things: they're measuring relative success, not absolute. Of course it's easier to move between deciles if the distribution of income is flat, but the net result of the movement also has less actual impact. It's also zero-sum: everyone moving up from the bottom decile has to be replaced by someone! Overall qual…

Measured by what metric, mean, median income? Work/life balance? Quality of life is such a broad and nebulous term, any two measurements can come to completely different results so it is largely useless.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#59

Post by imtringued »

endisneigh wrote: post #4

I’m unconvinced that inequality matters. A better set of questions would be one like: how much does your parents (lack of) success predict your own? How likely are you to attain some arbitrary yet desirable standard of living, etc. Inequality is related to these things but doesn’t necessarily block them.

If inequality goes beyond skill inequality then it is a sign of an inefficient market. So far every person or blog I have seen that says inequality is good has completely ignored or even wants artificial inefficiencies to maintain that inequality. But then they do a post rationalization and say that inequality is good because it reflects skill differences.

Inequality matters because 90% of it is pointless.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#60

Post by imtringued »

malandrew wrote: post #32
endisneigh wrote: post #4

I’m unconvinced that inequality matters. A better set of questions would be one like: how much does your parents (lack of) success predict your own? How likely are you to attain some arbitrary yet desirable standard of living, etc. Inequality is related to these things but doesn’t necessarily block them.

I would go a step further and say it’s a feature and not a bug. There are no robust ecosystems in nature where there is equality between all members of that system. The most robust ecosystems are those where you have the greatest diversity of species which correlates with inequality between them. Personally I don’t see how a modern society at scale could ever be equal and fiction. Equality really only works locally a…

Our societies aren't very stable and they aren't stable because of inequality that goes beyond personal ability.
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