Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#101

Post by nischalshetty » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 8:22 AM UTC

Good and bad developers exist anywhere and everywhere. May be because India is a country of a billion people, even small percentages lead to a big number. So your chances of finding not so good developers are higher in India.

But that does not mean that India is all about cheap software development with code that never works. Outsource your projects to the right people and you get things right. There are pretty good companies such as Slideshare, Zoho and most of the big guns like Google, Microsoft, Adobe with offices in India where great products have been developed by Indian developers.

All I say is, give developers in India the kind of money they really deserve (which is still significantly less than what their American counterparts command; it's more to do with the lower cost of living than anything else really) and you would get software that matches international standards.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#102

Post by skrebbel » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 8:24 AM UTC

nischalshetty wrote: post #101

Good and bad developers exist anywhere and everywhere. May be because India is a country of a billion people, even small percentages lead to a big number. So your chances of finding not so good developers are higher in India. But that does not mean that India is all about cheap software development with code that never works. Outsource your projects to the right people and you get things right. There are pretty good…

> May be because India is a country of a billion people, even small percentages lead to a big number. So your chances of finding not so good developers are higher in India.

Sorry, but you really should try and do that math again.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#103

Post by potatolicious » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 8:35 AM UTC

beachgeek wrote: post #76

yummyfajitas wrote: post #53

Here's why you should feel threatened by programmers in India. I recently hired a guy over there to work for our startup. He's smart and he gets things done. He's still a little green, but overall he adds a lot of value to our company. He's just as good as anyone I would have found in the US. And after we exit/die, the company he starts might be competing with yours. India has a billion people, 10's of millions of co…

Except that he won't. There seems to be a strong societal and cultural pressure working against people that want to go into business for themselves. My Dad thinks I'm a bonehead for spending my time at startups and such even though I've tried explaining how working at a large corporation can suck your soul out. I'm pretty sure its not just my Dad and immediate family.

Us Chinese also have a strong cultural inclination towards working at a big company instead of striking it out on your own.

That hasn't stopped the likes to Tony Hsieh (Zappos), Fred Chang (Newegg), etc etc. And that's not even mentioning any entrepreneurs in Asia.

India has a billion people, I think it's pretty safe to say that there are a significant number of entrepreneurs worth their salt that will come out of that place - cultural impetus or otherwise.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#104

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 8:41 AM UTC

mailanay wrote: post #64

Although it is unfair to generalize this to all Indian software companies, unfortunately, it is mostly true. In my opinion the reason is mostly one of these three: 1) Some Indian companies, look to cash in the price arbitrage, and have a short term view (3 - 5 years). So they bid for projects, where they have very little expertise and experience. (In India, there is a huge market for sub-sub-contracting. Companies, w…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#105

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 8:45 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #104

mailanay wrote: post #64

Although it is unfair to generalize this to all Indian software companies, unfortunately, it is mostly true. In my opinion the reason is mostly one of these three: 1) Some Indian companies, look to cash in the price arbitrage, and have a short term view (3 - 5 years). So they bid for projects, where they have very little expertise and experience. (In India, there is a huge market for sub-sub-contracting. Companies, w…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#106

Post by daliusd » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 8:46 AM UTC

ankeshk wrote: post #91

patio11 wrote: post #18

Quote one of my past Indian coworkers: "If you pay peanuts, you hire monkeys.". Which is the chuckle worthy way of saying that eventually the markets are, all else equal, fairly efficient, and that the labor pool available at $4 an hour to bill to you at $12 an hour has systemic, pervasive competence issues which will prevent the successful completion of many projects. Anyhow, beating the usual drum: don't be a cost…

If you want to outsource to India, you need to find a company that hires super stars. Super stars in India demand a salary of Rs50,000 to Rs 100,000 a month. Which is still quite less from international point of view: its about $1000 to $2000 a month. A company hiring them will bill you a minimum of $20-30 per hour. Usually more like $40-45 per hour. If you go with a company that is billing you less than that from In…

It is less from Western point of view not from international. I'm sure that in Latin America and Eastern Europe prices are quite similar and time zone differences are more acceptable. India lose in this price range because of cultural differences as well. Usually those are small details like matching Christian and/or international holidays (therefore no conflicting days off) but sum of those details are really significant.

Again your point just confirms fact that Western developers shouldn't worry about competition from India.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#107

Post by beachgeek » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 9:03 AM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #103

beachgeek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that he won't. There seems to be a strong societal and cultural pressure working against people that want to go into business for themselves. My Dad thinks I'm a bonehead for spending my time at startups and such even though I've tried explaining how working at a large corporation can suck your soul out. I'm pretty sure its not just my Dad and immediate family.

Us Chinese also have a strong cultural inclination towards working at a big company instead of striking it out on your own. That hasn't stopped the likes to Tony Hsieh (Zappos), Fred Chang (Newegg), etc etc. And that's not even mentioning any entrepreneurs in Asia. India has a billion people, I think it's pretty safe to say that there are a significant number of entrepreneurs worth their salt that will come out of th…

I would think of Robin Li of Baidu as the #1 Chinese tech entrepreneur. Why? Because he was successful in China. Also he had the vision to figure out where the Internet would go in China + the cajones to execute on it.

I know of the folks you have mentioned however they gained success in US. There have been lots of successful Indian-American tech entrepreneurs as well.

I WANT successful tech entrepreneurs to come out of India. I want young Indian techies to contribute towards the upliftment of India instead of working for US. No offense towards native-born Caucasian Americans.

I'm just puzzled its taking so long especially when it seems conditions are so ripe in India for tech startups. So I can only imagine its a cultural thing.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#108

Post by aangjie » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 9:18 AM UTC

beachgeek wrote: post #89

eshvk wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are probably a couple of reasons: 1. The total number of startups is going to be lesser due to redtape although I believe that is becoming less of an issue as time goes on. 2. It is probably perceived to be more lucrative to target the American market. I would think that a larger proportion of the ~ 120M internet users in India would be similar (young urban professional) and therefore easier to release products…

OK. If you look at the growth amongst Internet users in India between, say 2009 and estimates for 2011, it resembles the growth amongst Internet users in US in the late 90s. US had 120M Internet users around the time of the Web 1.0 boom. Mobile usage is even higher as you know so it seems like mobile app startups could do really well. If the growth is happening in small towns/rural areas even better, no SV company is…

Reg: redtape: I have personal experience with trading stocks in both india and U.S. I have found that the real problem has simply been in finding the tax agreements btw the countries and finding bankers who understand and fix the issue. Not sure that's relevant to startup company space.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#109

Post by dasil003 » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 9:18 AM UTC

smg wrote: post #52

Look around you and you will find that most American companies hire lots of Indians as programmers. Do you think that the guys who ended up coming to America suddenly transmogrified in to competent programmers during their flight across the ocean? Do you think that those Indian engineers who decided to stay back and work in India are any less competent than the ones who took the flight? Having worked in both India an…

I'd like to think that the guys getting H1-Bs t come over to the US are a cut above average. Also since software engineering is one of the go-to occupations that people push their kids into in India, I imagine the low-end is a bit fatter there. So I would expect that the quality of Indian programmers in the US is better on average than it is in India, but that says nothing about the outliers.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#110

Post by dasil003 » Mon, Dec 05, 2011, 9:23 AM UTC

muzz wrote: post #65

mksreddy wrote: post #11

Decent Indian Outsourcing Companies charge 50$/hrs. Authors friend was willing to pay 12$/hr and he got what he payed for. Outsourcing or not, if you want cheap, you will get cheap.

The whole point of outsourcing is to get something done at lower cost. If $50/hr isn't significantly lower than what it would cost here (including factoring in the intangible costs such as communication time, etc) then outsourcing would no longer be compelling.

$50/hr is extremely cheap in the US. You can find some competent people at this level, but mostly pretty green. If you are hiring an actual agency, competency probably starts at $100.