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Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

blog.jpl-consulting.com

11–20 of 143 posts

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#12
post #7

With all due respect, there is no reason that folks in India will not learn the same stuff the author learnt. They would (and probably are) on hacker news - learning the same subset of things. And, they live in a country where $2 still buys you a decent meal. I don't see why they wont be able to do a good job, for less.

Something that's become increasingly clear to me as a developer is that good code is only a small part of the puzzle - by far the most important factor is communication.

It's difficult enough to determine exactly what it is a client is really asking for as a native English speaker sitting in the same room.

Add in a language barrier, time-zone barrier, remote communications barrier and a cultural barrier and it becomes increasingly difficult for any non-trivial project to succeed.

Outsourcing seems to be most successful if you can very clearly define a specification or systematize the work, have enough knowledge to review the quality of the work that comes back and have plenty of time to micro-manage the project.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#13
post #4

Why single out India? Sure, it's become a bit of a byword for "outsource" but I think you'd find the same were you to outsource to any country - even within your own country. The problems pointed out largely surrounding happen due to the difficulty of communicating with a remote team. Having the product owner and the development team geographically distant make everything ten times harder; doesn't matter if they're i…

Agree that communication (or lack thereof) is a key issue. That can be worked out but having 11PM conference calls or combined hacking sessions stretching to 2-3 AM gets old very quickly.

Another is the fact that the culture within a lot of contract shops isn't exactly innovation-driven. I really don't understand how you could get an engineer/coder passionate enough to be interested in some stranger's project.

Net net I agree with the author: you can still make a career out of tech. The doomsayers from ~10 years ago who predicted the end of the US programmer were wrong. I don't think however that big companies (Cisco/Microsoft: any company with a big India development center) will ever hire legions of US programmers again though. That train has long since left the station.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#14
Comparing nationalities is overly general and wrong. You should have stuck to comparing hourly rates instead. The points you have made may apply to comparing U.S. based developers just as much as they apply to comparisons with non U.S. based developers. I have seen U.S. developers charge rates which I know are below the level that a freelance developer would need to live on, and I have seen these same developers be very flaky. A solid developer can charge as much as anyone regardless of location.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#15
I'm a partner at a Ruby outsourcing company in Argentina. I sympathize with the author, but I think the conclusion that outsourcing doesn't work is overly broad.

The crux of the problem is that working with a remote team is a very different proposition than working with people onsite - a fact that is obvious but that people generally fail to act on.

Quite often at my company we're contacted by clients want to hire folks in a foreign country and expect them to work like remote employees, but cheaper, and with fewer legal responsibilities. They think that through the wonders of Skype and email, people in India (or South America) can work just like on-site employees.

The reality is that outsourced development to remote teams only works when the client is willing to adapt their own work patterns to it. As a client, you need to:

* Have a crystal clear idea of what you want built. The less communication overhead you have with the remote team, the easier your life will be, and the more likely it will be that stuff gets implemented the way you want to.

* Have frequent and early deliverable dates. Don't start a project that will take 6 months to get a first release out with a remote team. Shoot for as early a release as possible, followed by frequent small releases. This lets you pull out almost whenever you want and also reduces the likelihood of burning out the developers on the other side.

* If you already have a company with a bunch of people, have the remote developers work outside your regular dev cycle. Don't expect to plug in a couple of guys located 5 times zones away into your regular team, unless your regular team is already distributed.

* Be linguistically very compatible with the folks you're outsourcing to. If you have any difficulties understanding or being understood by the folks you're hiring, then you're significantly increasing your risk.

The well known Ruby consultancies like Pivotal, Thoughtbot and Hashrocket will all tell you, that outsourcing to foreign countries is a mistake, and that developers need to be on-site. This, of course, while basing a huge amount of their business on Rails and a bunch of other open source libraries and frameworks which are developed almost entirely by distributed teams. These companies have an economic incentive to lead people away from outsourcing to cheaper countries, so follow the money.

It just also happens to be the case that since many clients don't understand how much their own workflow needs to change, many outsourced projects fail and reinforce the idea that outsourcing doesn't work.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#16
post #4

Why single out India? Sure, it's become a bit of a byword for "outsource" but I think you'd find the same were you to outsource to any country - even within your own country. The problems pointed out largely surrounding happen due to the difficulty of communicating with a remote team. Having the product owner and the development team geographically distant make everything ten times harder; doesn't matter if they're i…

I suspect that's who the author may have felt threatened by at some point, it's obvious this is specific to his experience.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#17
The people who can’t finish after double the allotted time exist in the US, too. Except here they bill the government $100+/hour to not finish FBI case file systems or air traffic control revamps.

There exists good developers in India, but they are harder to find than good programmers locally, because of the distance.

It really is the case that 50% of everybody is below median — doctors, programmers, judges, …!

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#18
Quote one of my past Indian coworkers: "If you pay peanuts, you hire monkeys.". Which is the chuckle worthy way of saying that eventually the markets are, all else equal, fairly efficient, and that the labor pool available at $4 an hour to bill to you at $12 an hour has systemic, pervasive competence issues which will prevent the successful completion of many projects.

Anyhow, beating the usual drum: don't be a cost center. Figure out how the business works and nobody will even consider outsourcing the projects you'll work on.

Re: Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India

#19
post #15

I'm a partner at a Ruby outsourcing company in Argentina. I sympathize with the author, but I think the conclusion that outsourcing doesn't work is overly broad. The crux of the problem is that working with a remote team is a very different proposition than working with people onsite - a fact that is obvious but that people generally fail to act on. Quite often at my company we're contacted by clients want to hire fo…

> Have a crystal clear idea of what you want built.

> Have frequent and early deliverable dates.

Both of these things are extremely difficult (if not impossible) for experienced software consultancies to know up front, let alone the crowd looking to outsource. More importantly both figuring out what to build and knowing when those things are deliverable have, in my experience, required the involvement and input of the developer.

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