ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective • Hacker News Board

Re: ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective

#111

Post by rejectfinite » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:56 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #72

Beta-7 wrote: post #16

It's interesting how the ThinkPads used to be the tech person's™ laptop of choice because of their repairability and extendability, but nowadays most tech people (at least in the professional setting) are using Apple's MacBooks which are the opposite when it comes to repairability and extendability.

I think it's simply that the advantages of either of those features have become less compelling. No one actually wants to repair their computer, although it's nice in the abstract for repair to be easy when it's necessary. I value reliability quite a bit, which is why I was unwilling to buy a second laptop with butterfly switches, lucky for me Apple didn't force me to make a hard decision. I also value being able to…

>Extendability was valuable when RAM and hard drives got cheaper faster than CPUs

As someone who runs local VMs on Windows, this is still true. I would like 32GB RAM and 1-2TB SSD storage locally.

>It's not surprising to see normal coders using a machine that just gets out of the way.

Tinkpads still do this? My first is my work machine, a T490s about 2 years old? I haven't done anything to the hardware itself. No repairs or opening up needed.

Re: ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective

#112

Post by heeen2 » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 7:31 PM UTC

MeltedVoltage wrote: post #54

scrlk wrote: post #24

Sadly they don't make them like they used to. Keyboards and repairability comes to mind. I don't mind the chiclet keycaps, but Lenovo really ruined the keyboard when they went from the 7 row layout [0] to the current 6 row layout [1]. Each new generation of ThinkPad reduces the travel distance of the keyboard - they've gone from 2.5 mm in the T420 (2011) to 1.5 mm in the T14 G3 (2022). 1 mm doesn't sound like on pape…

I have found that it is often dust in the port that makes them feel loose. Cleaning them with a little brush (like the ones that come with an electric shaver) made a lot of difference for me.

The port on my phone started to feel loose to the point where charging became an issue. The dust and lint was compressed so much that nothing short of a steel needle helped.

Re: ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective

#113

Post by FridayoLeary » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 7:32 PM UTC

squarefoot wrote: post #61

scrlk wrote: post #24

Sadly they don't make them like they used to. Keyboards and repairability comes to mind. I don't mind the chiclet keycaps, but Lenovo really ruined the keyboard when they went from the 7 row layout [0] to the current 6 row layout [1]. Each new generation of ThinkPad reduces the travel distance of the keyboard - they've gone from 2.5 mm in the T420 (2011) to 1.5 mm in the T14 G3 (2022). 1 mm doesn't sound like on pape…

> I don't understand why Lenovo doesn't add an extra 1 mm to the thickness of their laptops, at least it would restore the reputation for typing feel on ThinkPads. Because, after years of advertising made by designers and not by technical people, for most potential buyers more thin = more modern so to remain in the game they have to adapt to the most idiotic trend today: make devices thin as credit cards no matter ho…

I don't think that's true anymore since apple is reversing that trend with their new iphones being their thickest ever. The latest stupid trend seems to be to treat a device as a camera with smart features attached.

Re: ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective

#114

Post by jtwaleson » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 7:49 PM UTC

GolfPopper wrote: post #82

jtwaleson wrote: post #8

I’ve been a bit of a Thinkpad fanatic ever since my dad got a T42p somewhere in 2004. I have been on Thinkpads since 2006. I bought old ones on eBay and now have a collection of about 15 machines. The 700c, two butterfly keyboard 701cs, the 240 and a lot more. I’m currently on a T495s. From my experience I can say that the “old IBM machines were reliable and well constructed” is not true. They were bulky and over tim…

"Everything breaks", but my X220 is readily repairable. It's a veritable Laptop of Theseus at this point, with the only original parts being the LCD rear cover, hinges, and base cover assembly. I stick with it, both because I dislike modern ultra-thin/ultralight laptops (, and because I personally find chicklet keyboards completely unusable. (Aftermarket replacements for the keyboard aren't as good as originals, but…

Haha, I did not include the X220. It's great. With the bulky stuff I meant the real IBM ThinkPads from before 2005. Although 2000-2005 was pretty good too, before that most machines were still really heavy.

Re: ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective

#115

Post by ak217 » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 7:52 PM UTC

lvl102 wrote: post #10

The old school pre-Lenovo keyboards are the best ever made. Nothing even comes close to that feeling.

SK-8855 (https://sharktastica.co.uk/wiki?id=lenovo8855) is my biggest productivity tool. I'm probably about twice as productive with this keyboard than without it.

They resell for $150+ on ebay. I dread the day when my supply runs out.

Re: ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective

#116

Post by jeffbee » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 8:18 PM UTC

pengaru wrote: post #89

jeffbee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The X220 was for many long-time ThinkPad users the last good one. It had real keycaps and no trackpad. Too bad about the display, since the X220 was during the era that Lenovo was gaslighting buyers about how IPS panels simply could not be procured on the open market, right before Apple showed them to be liars. The X220 display is truly ghastly. Like some other X-series enthusiasts I consider the X61 Tablet with the…

The X230 is nearly identical physically, and you can swap the X220 keyboard onto it. Advantage being 3rd-gen/HD4000 igpu which is Vulkan capable, not available on the X220. This difference makes the X230 far more practical in terms of modern graphics development/environments.

TIL. Honestly it looks like you'd need to do some grinding to get the 220 keyboard into the 230? But that's cool, I did not know.

https://download.lenovo.com/Images/Parts/45N2211/1.jpg

https://download.lenovo.com/Images/Parts/04X1345/12.jpg

Re: ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective

#117

Post by least » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 8:18 PM UTC

FridayoLeary wrote: post #113

squarefoot wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why Lenovo doesn't add an extra 1 mm to the thickness of their laptops, at least it would restore the reputation for typing feel on ThinkPads. Because, after years of advertising made by designers and not by technical people, for most potential buyers more thin = more modern so to remain in the game they have to adapt to the most idiotic trend today: make devices thin as credit cards no matter ho…

I don't think that's true anymore since apple is reversing that trend with their new iphones being their thickest ever. The latest stupid trend seems to be to treat a device as a camera with smart features attached.

I fail to see how this is a stupid trend. Most people want to have a camera on their person always and smartphones are that camera. They've completely killed off the point and shoot market and mostly the camcorder market as well. Seeing genuine improvement on what is a family's camera year over year is welcome.

Re: ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective

#118

Post by numpad0 » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 8:28 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #40

JamesAdir wrote: post #3

My Thinkpad X220 still going strong, and I miss a computer I can open up, replace or upgrade what's needed in an easy way. The form factor is good enough and I don't need or want this inch thin laptops just because one company decided it's suits them and fashionable. Unfortunately Lenovo doesn't really keep the brand and in the gazillion models they have on stock, there isn't one that can replace my X220 in convenien…

The X220 was for many long-time ThinkPad users the last good one. It had real keycaps and no trackpad. Too bad about the display, since the X220 was during the era that Lenovo was gaslighting buyers about how IPS panels simply could not be procured on the open market, right before Apple showed them to be liars. The X220 display is truly ghastly. Like some other X-series enthusiasts I consider the X61 Tablet with the…

X1 Nano seems fine, only it costs like a proper ThinkPad.

Re: ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective

#119

Post by numpad0 » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 8:32 PM UTC

blowski wrote: post #68

ok123456 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bing: Macbook Butterfly Keyboard Failure. In reality, modern Macbooks have a horrible reputation for repairability and engage in dark patterns to stop you from getting your device repaired even when it is an option.

Counter-point. The company I work for has about 50/50 Macbooks vs Lenovo. We have about 1000 staff, and I've seen similar rates in a company with 5000 staff. Macbooks * 2% fail in first 12 months * 20% need replacing in 3 years Lenovo: * 20% fail in first 12 months. (Surprisingly high number fail out of the box) * 80% need replacing within 3 years I don't want a laptop that's easy to repair as much as a laptop that d…

Is that because MacBooks are more tolerant of damages, rather than being resistant? I've seen photos of MacBooks with deformed bodies still operating normally. Same don't happen often with other brands.

Re: ThinkPad’s 30th Anniversary: An Insider’s Perspective

#120

Post by least » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 8:35 PM UTC

squarefoot wrote: post #61

scrlk wrote: post #24

Sadly they don't make them like they used to. Keyboards and repairability comes to mind. I don't mind the chiclet keycaps, but Lenovo really ruined the keyboard when they went from the 7 row layout [0] to the current 6 row layout [1]. Each new generation of ThinkPad reduces the travel distance of the keyboard - they've gone from 2.5 mm in the T420 (2011) to 1.5 mm in the T14 G3 (2022). 1 mm doesn't sound like on pape…

> I don't understand why Lenovo doesn't add an extra 1 mm to the thickness of their laptops, at least it would restore the reputation for typing feel on ThinkPads. Because, after years of advertising made by designers and not by technical people, for most potential buyers more thin = more modern so to remain in the game they have to adapt to the most idiotic trend today: make devices thin as credit cards no matter ho…

Wanting thinner and lighter devices isn't some sort of weird desire only non-technical people want. Computers have gradually miniaturized from something that fits in a warehouse to something that fits into a room in your office into something that fits on people's desks into something that fits in your pocket. And subsequently, the skills required to repair said devices ends up changing. I won't say it's easier or harder, though I would say through-hole components are much easier to swap out than SMDs. Yet I don't really see you complaining about that.

So no, striving for thinness is not idiotic. It follows the same principles of miniaturization of all components in PCs. It also changes the skillset required to work on the devices, but that's not really all that problematic.

> the most idiotic trend today: make devices thin as credit cards no matter how this would impact their usability, battery life, robustness, repairability etc.

They're not, though. Laptops are by definition a compromise product. You compromise on various things to afford yourself more portability. If you want a laptop that's easier to repair, they have those. You want something with more power? They have those too, but it's going to be less portable and have less battery life.

Your real complaint is that they don't make a Thinkpad that matches your own set of acceptable compromises and tradeoffs in a portable device. That's totally valid but has nothing to do with your asinine complaints about thinness.