Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers • Hacker News Board

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#281

Post by prepend » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 11:38 AM UTC

sgammon wrote: post #232

prepend wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can blame gold if it is very easy to steal. Or if owners are more likely to have it stolen, etc etc. Crypto has certain vulnerabilities that gold doesn’t. But it also has lots of benefits. But I don’t know of any situations where gold banks let them drive trucks of $40M in gold before they stopped customers. It’s just harder to move.

? Candidly I don't know what you mean, so I will share this anecdote about gold in trucks: there is a building in downtown Chicago, built at the height of the mob days, with an elevator which can lift an entire (full) armored car. It can lift it several stories up, into the building, where the bank can unload it safely without risk of robbery. Also, of course, you can't actually steal bitcoin, you can merely steal th…

Stealing the keys is effectively stealing Bitcoin. Otherwise you get into semantic mumbo jumbo because Bitcoin isn’t owned by anyone, it’s just assigned to an address that is controlled by a private key, etc etc.

If I steal your keys, I steal your Bitcoin. And it’s easier to steal the private keys to $40M in Bitcoin than it is to steal $40M in gold (700 kg).

What I meant with my poor analogy is that if a bank is planning on blocking customers from withdrawing funds, it’s much harder to ship out the gold to their friends than to ship out Bitcoin. It’s pretty trivial to allow Bitcoin withdrawals. It’s just logistically hard to coordinate the transport of 700kg of gold out of the bank and to somewhere else.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#282

Post by laurentsigal » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 12:11 PM UTC

redox99 wrote: post #143

jedberg wrote: post #33

Oh hey look the consequences of a monetary system that isn't backed by a legal system (that is backed up by people with guns). The reason fiat money works is because at the end of the day if you run into trouble you have the legal system to make things right. And if the perpetrator of the crime doesn't listen to the legal system, there are people with guns/violence to back that up. That's why the whole system works -…

This isn't crypto. You didn't own any crypto. Some company owned your crypto. The whole point of crypto is that you can own it (ie you and only you have your keys). We hear stories here every now and then about how their bank/paypal/etc froze their money and they are fucked. Crypto allows you to actually own your stuff. With fiat unless you hold cash, you can't do that. Crypto is about being trustless. If you give aw…

How do you buy a crypto without the trust? I understand that once you "have" it no-one can claim it's not yours, but is there any secure system about buying?

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#283

Post by ETH_start » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 12:22 PM UTC

e63f67dd-065b wrote: post #250

moralestapia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't both exist though? Each with their own advantage/disadvantages, and you get to choose which one to use after considering the tradeoffs. Things I would use crypto for: * Money transfers, particularly cross border payments. Low fees, quick confirmation from all parties. * Any transaction that I would like to keep my privacy on (and this does not mean illegal things, btw). Things I would never use crypto for:…

> Money transfers, particularly cross border payments. Low fees, quick confirmation from all parties. Let me tell you my experience with trying to remit money to my family with crypto. I really tried to give it a fair shot, because finding a cheaper way to shift money around would be really nice. I wanted to do it via stablecoins, because I have no interest in playing the speculation game with BTC/ETH prices. So the…

Can't you just use Uniswap to swap the USDC for ETH, before transferring the ETH to your exchange account in Malaysia? The Uniswap fee is only 0.05% ($0.50 on a $1,000 swap). The transfer and conversion of ETH to MYR should take 5 minutes, so you wouldn't be speculating on ETH's price for long.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#284

Post by tekknik » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:11 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #256

tekknik wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is any of this possible in the real world? If my bank says I owe them money, it’s on them to prove it. If they can’t I can easily take them to court.

"Easily" is far from my experience. I eventually got everything back but it took literally years.

I’d love to hear more.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#285

Post by tekknik » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

sgammon wrote: post #274

tekknik wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can insure gold, bitcoin is much more difficult to insure. In fact, I can have my gold stored in a secure facility that I don’t own yet still retain full ownership rights.

yes, you sure can, but that's just a matter of delegated custody; the facility that stores it for you is acting as your agent. bitcoin is harder to insure because guaranteeing the safety of keys remains a challenge.

No bitcoin has always been difficult to insure because no sane company would insure something that can double or triple value overnight. The extreme finite quantity of bitcoins is what makes it difficult to insure.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#286

Post by Tangurena2 » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

cruano wrote: post #241

qzx_pierri wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't lump Techno in with 'EDM' Techno = A movement that is largely an exercise in pushing computers/midi to their limit while creating inventive music. EDM = event driven marketing. pop music with a 4x4 kick drum. ...Yeah I know, semantics.

Ah yes, nothing more inventive than using the same drum synthesizer for 40 years! Also, I'm sure it's super hard to push the limits of all 127 values of dynamic range that MIDI offers, especially when you also write all your music on common time

Well, TR-808s (and the re-makes) still sound great.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#287

Post by Tangurena2 » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 3:02 PM UTC

omgomgomgomg wrote: post #122

This was an incredibly bold operation from the begining. They planned to exit one way or another, using the incorporated in the US to gain trust and the plan was not to just disappear, but file for bankruptcy as in "it happens". It is remarkable how they used the depositors or investors money to pay for their lawyers and yet the government considers this a chapter 11 instead of 7, as if there is any way to conduct bu…

> Every time something like this happens, on such a scale, makes you wonder, how can so many people fall for this?

The same way that people keep falling for the same sorts of conspiracy theories over the years.

Add to that, the fear of missing out, and you can extra marvelous quantities of wealth from suckers. Several industries use FOMO to manipulate people into purchasing things that they probably shouldn't - like cars, MLMs and real estate (sample: "buy now, or forever be priced out of the market!"). After having been screwed (too many times!) previously by FOMO, I have an extremely adverse over-reaction to it: I have to walk away before I get angry.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#288

Post by nradov » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 3:08 PM UTC

tossl568 wrote: post #96

jedberg wrote: post #33

Oh hey look the consequences of a monetary system that isn't backed by a legal system (that is backed up by people with guns). The reason fiat money works is because at the end of the day if you run into trouble you have the legal system to make things right. And if the perpetrator of the crime doesn't listen to the legal system, there are people with guns/violence to back that up. That's why the whole system works -…

You can't steal my Bitcoin if I don't deposit them with a custodian. This is like blaming gold itself if the owners of a gold bank run off with the gold.

I would blame gold itself in that circumstance. The fact that gold is so easy to steal, and so hard to then recover, makes it a poor currency. Fiat currency in an electronic account with a legitimate financial institution is much safer and more secure.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#289

Post by lottin » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 3:26 PM UTC

dlubarov wrote: post #108

lottin wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Financing requires seizable assets, which means it's unimplementable using blackchain-based digital assets and smart contracts.

There are plenty of DeFi systems where (crypto)assets are used as collateral - see MakerDAO, Compound, Aave, etc. (Granted, you can't deposit a house or car as collateral, if that's what you're getting at?)

Financing is the advancement of funds in exchange for a promise that those funds will be repaid later. For this to work the borrower must own assets that can be seized in the event of default. Since blockchain-based assets cannot be seized, this means financing is fundamentally impossible using blockchain technology. The best they can do is overcollateralised loans, where the borrower must first advance themself the funds that they are "borrowing". This isn't financing because there isn't any advancement of funds. Funds are simply swapped.

Re: Celsius Execs Cashed Out $40M in Crypto Before Halting Withdrawals for Customers

#290

Post by HelloNurse » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 3:35 PM UTC

aydyn wrote: post #233

RC_ITR wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Crypto is about being trustless. People always say this, but you definitely have to trust that a group of unknown validators/miners/stakers will choose to keep working on your chosen chain, just as much as you have to trust that the bank will keep doing it's job as they promised you they would. And before you say "I don't need trust, validators have economic incentive to keep doing it, and if they don't someone else…

> And before you say "I don't need trust, validators have economic incentive to keep doing it, and if they don't someone else will", I have something to tell you about why people choose to work at banks (it's the salary). This statement supports exactly the opposite of the point you're trying to make. Think about it: * Bankers have economic incentive to work at a bank (the salary) * Validators have economic incentive…

"Validators", and we are making the strong assumption that they can actually support your claims of ownership against scammers and they don't choose to side with the enemy, aren't necessarily going to be around forever.

They can suddenly leave your cryptocurrency of choice by simply cashing out and switching to the "block rewards" of another crypto scheme, and then you are going to be alone with the bad actors.