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SAT score distributions in Michigan

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Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#441

Post by afr0ck »

yucky wrote: post #367
daemoens wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone willing to leave their home country is almost always guaranteed to be a hard worker. It’s why immigrants are disproportionately successful compared to natives. Anyone who isn’t already a hard worker will not bother immigrating.

That doesn't explain why they choose the US in such large numbers though. If this is the best and the brightest they could go be just as successful anywhere else too. So why is the US such a magnet?

Cause US is the largest and the most superior on so many indices economicaly, sometimes providing the only top notch opportunities in the whole world (e.g., advanced high-tech). However, lots of hard working people from poorer or less developed parts of the world immigrate to countries other than the US in large numbers (legally, for education and skilled work). Most people in African countries (North Africa in particular, but also subsaharan, with the exception of South Africa) immigrate to Europe, namely France, Germany and Sweden. And immigration is just as successful as in the US (there are lately immigration issues in Europe, but it's a different type of immigration, refugees and asylum seekers, caused by destabilised regions in the middle east. I'm talking about regular immigration for education and skileld work).

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#442

Post by eternalban »

coryrc wrote: post #278
eternalban wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The SATs, particularly the mathematics score, is very much a reflection of your parents' willingness to push you academically. I scored very high in both. Believe me, as new immigrants we were completely clueless about the heated race to top spots. In my case, credits goes to my makers (mom and dad :) and the fact that Iran had fairly good public schools. Culture is important. Two relevant shockers for me (as a ver…

> Culture has a lot to do with it. If you admit this, you'd be saying one culture is worse and needs to change. One party in the US is against saying anyone but white men (and Karen) can do anything wrong, so the problem is everyone else. But it obviously isn't, some groups have cultures which denigrate learning and the consequence is those groups do not succeed academically or economically. All of the USA has at lea…

No so broad a notion of 'culture', mainly cultural 'content'. This can be, and it is tweaked (worldwide), as needed. Cinema/TV in US has always been a leading indicator of societal change, rarely a lagging indicator. So it has always been, in a sense, understood and used as a pedagogical platform.

They actually tried this in US starting in late 80s and 90s, when we got a slate of 'geeks who get babes, and social acceptance' movies - War Games, Real Genius, Revenge of the Nerds, Weird Science, Hackers, etc.

[p.s. didn't finish that thought! /g]

But imho this was the wrong set of adjustments. The inducements - sex, money, and social acceptance -- are certainly attractive, but any kid with half a brain can note that there are far easier and certainly more exciting ways than learning -- culturally celebrated ways, yo -- to get that very same set of inducements. It did however get us to the geek hero celebrity stage, with Jobs and now Musk.

[edits]

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#443

Post by socialismisok »

Manuel_D wrote: post #439
socialismisok wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

K, not every kid has access to a desk and the internet. Those things take money not every family has.

Both of these can be had for free at your local library. And to be pedantic, you don't even need a desk to study you can do it on a park table or the sidewalk. If someone doesn't have access to a desk (they're homeless?) or an internet connection, I doubt they're even taking the SAT.

I was homeless my final year of highschool, and basically homeless the year before. I took the SAT, but it was hard to figure out how. Even harder to bring myself to study rather than work.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#444

Post by sokoloff »

socialismisok wrote: post #428
sokoloff wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The financial solution chosen to drive equality is likely to be "you must fire half of your teachers, resulting in class sizes of 36 for you, which we think is close enough to 35". Does that actually help anyone?

Or "we tax wealthy people more", which sounds fine to me. (As a wealthy person.)

That’s somewhat straightforward for states (and property tax is a weak proxy form of it), but wealth taxation at the federal level is debatably but likely unconstitutional.

You could tax high-incomes more federally in a straightforward way, which is almost surely therefore easier to implement.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#445

Post by thwayunion »

fleetwoodsnack wrote: post #275
treis wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming your point by calling them "real accomplishments". But that's the whole debate. Is being an Eagle Scout a "real accomplishment" or is it a participation award? And if it's a participation award did the kid get it through his own initiative or because he was forced by his parents? The answer to that question is the whole debate. And this is not a "totally contrived" scenario. The guy is posting his kid…

Eagle Scout is the highest rank in American scouting, and is achieved by less than 5% of those who pursue it. Eagle Scouts include U.S. Presidents, Judges, Astronauts, Generals, and technology Founders. Those who achieve it and pursue a career in the military are advanced to a higher rank and higher payscale upon enlistment in all branches of the armed services. https://www.baylorisr.org/wp-content/uploads/Boy-Scouts…

Fifth percentile in an optional activity is NOT the big number you think it is in the case of elite university admissions. For reference, being in the fifth percentile of all track participants or all debate participants doesn't rise to the level that would move the needle on admission to CMU CS or HM. Just making the Varsity team in either is already above the 50th percentile in many cases, and setting yourself apart for super elite college admissions requires being in the top percentile or so of that 50th percentile of Varsity participants.

Seriously. Let's compare to scouting, which starts young. Every year, 4.14 million students participate in track across all age groups. There are at most 9,516 D1 track and field scholarships. That's a maximum 0.2% (not 2%, 0.2%), often lower. Again, good enough for a D1 partial scholarship is often the "bar" for consideration of athletics in admissions beyond "participation item". And even then, it's not automatic admissions. It's just the bar you need to clear for them to care. To consider it as part of the package. You probably need something else, in addition to this and great scores.

And, to be clear, the difference between 5% ability and 1% ability is HUGE. The difference between 1% and 0.5% is again huge. In many activities, there's an exponential curve in terms of talent and effort. So we're not merely talking about a few percentage points, we're talking about a very qualitatively significant difference in kind.

The other issue with scouting in particular is that it's not competitive and the requirements are, honestly, mostly box checking. And the ones that aren't pure box checking are subjective and opaque.

Now, don't get me wrong. Scouting is a worthy endeavor and achieving Eagle Scout is RIGHTFULLY a crowning achievement for many youth! It's something to be proud of and which should be awarded!

But here, the sour grapes are not about good or even great schools. It's about admission to the absolutely most competitive departments at the absolutely most competitive schools. And in those cases, Eagle Scout just doesn't move the needle as much as people here assume. It's the minimum to even start taking scouting seriously as a resume item, not a needle mover.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#446

Post by thwayunion »

treis wrote: post #188
fleetwoodsnack wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but more germane here: it’s also being used by you to discredit real accomplishments with hypothetical ones. I’m not discounting that you could be right, just that you could be right in a totally contrived scenario.

You're assuming your point by calling them "real accomplishments". But that's the whole debate. Is being an Eagle Scout a "real accomplishment" or is it a participation award? And if it's a participation award did the kid get it through his own initiative or because he was forced by his parents? The answer to that question is the whole debate. And this is not a "totally contrived" scenario. The guy is posting his kid…

Yes, it's a real accomplishment. It's also not the sort of accomplishment that moves the needle on elite admissions. There is no contradiction. The bar is higher than people think. CMU CS/HM don't have enough seats for everyone with good grades, good test scores, and an Eagle Scout-level accomplishment.

For reference, you probably have to be in the 0.2 percentile of track and field athletes (plus have a raving letter for your coach about your leadership of the team) in order for these types of departments at these types of schools to factor your athletic accomplishments into their decision making. But 5% of scouts make it to Eagle Scout. And going from fifth percentile in something to 0.2 percentile in something is... absolutely huge. In most endeavors, 5% is "show up, work hard, and care" while 0.2% is "be absolutely exceptional".

That doesn't mean that making Eagle Scout or doing well at regional track meets is a non-accomplishment. It just means that you're competing to be one of a few hundred or at most a few thousand in the entire ocean, not the pond or even the lake.

The kid got a big scholarship at a very excellent school. It's not like his effort was not rewarded. He just wasn't one of the 1K best in the country.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#447

Post by thwayunion »

coryfklein wrote: post #335

After reading the top comment in the OP; boy, I do not envy Asian high school students trying to get into a college these days! You already work your ass off getting top grades and crafting the most stellar of resumes, and it doesn't matter that your peers worked half as hard with half the achievements: you're going to get rejected by many top universities simply because of your race, a factor that was completely out…

That student was not rejected because of their race. They were rejected on merit.

Their grades and test scores were median among admitted cohorts at the "reject" institutions, and there's nothing else of note to an elite admissions office on their resume.

I'll say it again. Again, from the perspective of the schools on that list, his kid's grades and test scores are average, not exceptional.

The student meets the minimum bar for consideration, but so do 10X of other students competing for X seats.

The father is suffering snowflake syndrome. Participating in off-season JV track or placing third at one local high school debate tournament are not the sort of accomplishments that elite institutions care about, and nor should they, lest people demonstrating truly elite merit in those endeavors while also receiving top grades and test scores have their very real accomplishments cheapened.

So, the applicant is an average student and in every other way not notable. What would an elite university admit? Again, from their perspective, his academics aren't elite. They are average.

Ironically, the comment ostensibly arguing for merit is actually just saying "my kid should get more credit than is due and if he doesn't it's because of racism".

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#448

Post by glerk »

hotpotamus wrote: post #389
glerk wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at the table in the linked post and you might get an idea. The real question is why are you so interested in these buckets? Why are you trying to impose them on the rest of us?

I don't find the table all that helpful. I don't know the exact numbers, but given the number of black kids in the country, and the limited number of seats at Harvard, couldn't you construct a class of nothing but black students from the top SAT bracket and still have to deny most of them? As far as why I'm interested in these buckets - it's because this seems to be a very pressing matter of national concern - isn't…

> couldn't you construct a class of nothing but black students from the top SAT bracket and still have to deny most of them?

You could do that, but if we disregard race as a factor and use a completely unbiased approach (example: simply select the highest scores and roll a dice in case of a tie), it is easy to see what the distribution would look like based on that table.

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