SAT score distributions in Michigan • Hacker News Board

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#331

Post by Manuel_D » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #76

aabajian wrote: post #11

The SATs, particularly the mathematics score, is very much a reflection of your parents' willingness to push you academically. The stratification is more granular than Asian versus Black or White versus Native America. For example, Jewish students excel beyond the Caucasian average while Cambodian and other Southeast Asian Immigrants perform significantly below the national average for Asian Americans. The challenge…

SAT math is geometry,a 10th grade class for average students. Scoring below 700 isn't due to lack of "push" it's lack of some combination of intelligence, nurture, health, teaching. Due to the cost and complexity of transcontinental migration, most Asians in US now, and Jews last generation, come from elites from their previous family homeland who successfully migrated to escape bad government or seeking greater oppo…

> Now that Jewish immigration has mostly ended, their great-grandchildren (and the descendants of previous generations of Asian immigrants) are, as a cohort, not performing academically as well as today's Asian immigrant children and children of immigrants.

Source? Judging by elite college representation [1], they're doing at least as well if not better than Asian Americans (which granted, is not limited to just Asian immigrant children).

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24166064

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#332

Post by throwaway8582 » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 4:50 PM UTC

flatline wrote: post #44

timmg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The challenge for large and heterogeneously diverse nations like the U.S. is to offer an educational system that provides access to quality education regardless of parental involvement. But don’t your stats show that we already do? We “provide access” to everyone. Otherwise it wouldn’t matter how much the parents pushed the children. If your argument is that the system should push the children harder, how do you pr…

We don’t provide free access to test prep. We don’t provide equal access to parents and friends who are enthusiastic and pushed to do well on these tests. We don’t provide equal access to a culture that values academics over, say, sports and entertainment.

> We don’t provide free access to test prep.

There's tons of sample tests, vocabulary flashcards, and advice on test taking strategy available completely free online. There's no secret information or techniques taught in these expensive SAT prep classes that you can't find on Youtube, Google or Khan Academy. I didn't spend a single cent on SAT prep (and not much time either) and still managed to get a 1500.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#333

Post by dqpb » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

warner25 wrote: post #111

I think I'm mostly surprised to see how many of the "White" scores are so low, and so far behind "Asians," after years of hearing that the test is biased towards white / Anglo / native-English speakers raised in Western culture. I'm also reminded that I (like probably most people commenting on Hacker News) exist in a really small bubble in which everyone I closely associate with was in the top two bands (after going…

There was an episode on New York Times - The Daily, I believe it was "(6/24/22) One Elite High School's Struggle Over Admissions", in which one side of the debate argued that the over-representation of Asian's was actually an instance of white supremacy.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#334

Post by mistrial9 » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

ralphmelish wrote: post #279

mistrial9 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

generally in the USA, w.r.t. demographics, people from India are classified as 'caucasian' source: professional demographics practice in the USA using Federal Census data

You are wrong. 'Caucasian' is used to classify white Europeans. The US Government defines 'Asians' as 'having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.'[0] [0] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/note/US/RHI625221#:~:... .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_classification_of_India...

lots of anecdata there -- the division in the US politically between former slave-owning states and those opposed to slavery, and their vacillating political power, definitely adds to the extreme cases listed here. Plenty of classification and census work counts the majority of people with Indian Sub-continent history as "caucasian" . Those with the reverse axe to grind, spying racists everywhere, will emphasize the unjust and archaic examples. In the demography work I saw with my own eyes, people from the Indian Sub-continent were counted as "caucasian" without question.

not interested in partial arguments that can be misquoted by extremists on either side of this.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#335

Post by coryfklein » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

After reading the top comment in the OP; boy, I do not envy Asian high school students trying to get into a college these days! You already work your ass off getting top grades and crafting the most stellar of resumes, and it doesn't matter that your peers worked half as hard with half the achievements: you're going to get rejected by many top universities simply because of your race, a factor that was completely out of your control.

That has to be so frustrating.

If society has normalized folks with 1/8 Native American heritage claiming the legal benefits of that status, then as an Asian I'd be doing my geneology to see if I can justify claiming any other race on my own college admissions.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#336

Post by Manuel_D » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

socialismisok wrote: post #48

throwaway6734 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SATs also allow for children with non parental involvement but talent to excel because it's a simple process: take a test

It's hardly simple to prep for the SAT. It requires time and money and space.

Time, yes. For space you just need a desk. And if you have an internet connection, it doesn't require any money beyond what you've already paid your ISP.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#337

Post by dqpb » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

marcusverus wrote: post #280

mgfist wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not racial, it's cultural, socio-economic, and historical. Things like redlining, jim crow, GI Bill (lack-there-of for black people after WW2) all directly lead to the huge educational/economic inequality we see today. That said, it's clearly not racial based, because you can take a look at various non-American black populations and see big differences in educational levels and cultural values. For example, Nige…

> That said, it's clearly not racial based, because you can take a look at various non-American black populations and see big differences in educational levels and cultural values. There are big differences in educational levels and cultural views within every racial group. Is that relevant to the question of whether there are significant mean differences between racial groups on the population level?

First you have to define a sensible racial grouping. Good luck.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#338

Post by filoleg » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

nova22033 wrote: post #208

someguydave wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there is a way, you put kids in test prep and see if they do better. They generally do not improve much. The SAT is an IQ test, and IQ is mostly inherited from your parents.

Yes there is a way, you put kids in test prep and see if they do better. For this to be a real test, you'll need parents of twins willing to send only one kid to test prep..and not send the other one..you know..for science. Doubt there is a parent who would do that.

> For this to be a real test, you'll need parents of twins willing to send only one kid to test prep..and not send the other one

What's the issue with testing someone without prep, then giving them a week to study up, and then testing them again? People take SAT multiple times, you know, and it is a brand new set of questions every time.

I did that myself (took it 3 times total), and I can say this: taking it without prep and then taking it later with just a week of studying on my own for about an hour per day made a massive difference. Even before I got my results back on the second try, I already felt i did much better, as I was second guessing much less and felt more confident about my answers. And the final scores reflected that really well.

However, studying beyond that (which I did for my third attempt, months later) didn't help much and just marginally changed my scores by +-20 in different categories (out of 700 total max in each of the three categories, which is how it was scored at the time). I didnt feel any more prepared either. Judging by my acquaintances, it was a similar pattern. Massive boost in scores on the second try, marginal or non-existent in scores on attempts beyond the 2nd.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#339

Post by throwaway8582 » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #284

This is almost completely explained by income. https://statisticalatlas.com/state/Michigan/Household-Income

Correlation != causation. It could be that people with genes for high intelligence tend to be in high demand on the job market and make a lot of money, and also tend to pass those genes on to their children, which gives them an advantage SAT

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#340

Post by dqpb » Thu, Oct 06, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #55

davidn20 wrote: post #29

I think as a society we need to admit different race, in general, have different culture, values, and strengths. I don't even think that's a radical idea, but somehow it is. I have been watching this football competition youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrbljwLslYI The fun and athleticism you see is awe-inspiring, but I haven't seen a single Asian person competing or even at the event. My guess is a m…

> different race, in general, have different culture, values, and strengths The coarse divisions that we call "race" don't help much here, either - there's a lot of variance between different groups of asians as well as different groups of whites (think of how different italians are from irish). The way we're lumped together is actually very arbitrary (and changes depending on how the lumpers are trying to score poli…

According to this article, African Americas have been separated from their indigenous continent long enough that they are now their own distinct race.