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SAT score distributions in Michigan

infoproc.blogspot.com

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Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#151

Post by paulpauper »

4. By looking at the math score distribution (see full report) one can estimate how many students in each group are well-prepared enough to complete a rigorous STEM major -- e.g., pass calculus-based physics.

Doubt it. Calculus based physics at a university level is a tough SOB. Vectors, dels, series, operators, etc. SAT math is kid's play by comparison, the conceptual leap is huge. Yeah, it is predictive to some degree, but high level physics will tax even top scorers. Maybe on the old SATs it was more predictive but the SATs have gotten easier with lower ceiling.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#152

Post by jjj123 »

sokoloff wrote: post #63
flatline wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t provide free access to test prep. We don’t provide equal access to parents and friends who are enthusiastic and pushed to do well on these tests. We don’t provide equal access to a culture that values academics over, say, sports and entertainment.

What would the end state of the latter part of look like? Taking kids away from their families at birth and raising them in state not-quite-orphanages? Even the concept that academics should be valued over other topics should be a matter of family choice. If you want to prioritize music, art, sports, food, entertainment, fitness, religion, or something else over academics, should society over-ride that?

Free after school programs, free lunches, Medicare for All, public housing. These are all things that would level the playing field for poor kids and allow them to make the same decisions that wealthy kids get to make.

It’s not about choosing for them, it’s about lifting the boot on these kids necks enough so they can choose for themselves.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#153

Post by megaman821 »

dwater wrote: post #92
fasteddie31003 wrote: post #35

"Omitted variable bias" is what is going on here and is a statistical term that everyone needs to understand because it is causing so many race issues in America. The feature that is missing in this simplistic model of intelligence is cultural values. I am definitely not a racist but I am a "culturalist". Some people have a set of personal values (culture) that express themselves as doing better or worse in standardi…

OK, assuming you are correct, what's the root cause of difference in time spent studying? If the primary cause is less study time spent by black and brown students, how do you address that?

Why can't Asian and Black cultural values be different? Asians are over-represented in academic pursuits. Blacks are over-represented in athletic, musical, acting, and fashion pursuits. The only surprising thing to me is the lack of Black leaders and owners in enterprises with majority Black talent. It means less of a Black person's economic output is kept within the Black community.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#154

Post by prottog »

socialismisok wrote: post #28
alex_sf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's not ideal. Is the solution to have different standards for different groups based solely on skin color or self-identification?

It reasonably could be, if you are trying to undo systemic disadvantages that different groups have. You have to make a conscious choice to accept some adjustments higher if the foundation is systematically unfair. It might feel unfair to the folks who benefit from systematic advantages early.

You're arguing that past discrimination justifies present discrimination, and that past discrimination is in fact solely or majorly responsible for present disparities in outcomes. I can't see a world in which these positions are provable in a meaningful manner and not devolve society into a bitter, recriminatory cesspit, especially when it means that some people will in fact be hurt by present discrimination.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#155

Post by wara23arish »

lupire wrote: post #99
wara23arish wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont buy this argument for a second. You can buy a used sat prep book for cheap or even borrow one from a library. Practice twice a week leading up to the test with practice tests once every two weeks. taking a prep course will help, but thats not necessary at all.

Practicing won't teach you language and math.

practicing means practicing problems and learning ones you don’t understand. with the abundance of youtube videos/free sources on the internet, today there is no excuse except for a parent not teaching a kid what to prioritize in life imo.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#156

Post by hotpotamus »

sokoloff wrote: post #63
flatline wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t provide free access to test prep. We don’t provide equal access to parents and friends who are enthusiastic and pushed to do well on these tests. We don’t provide equal access to a culture that values academics over, say, sports and entertainment.

What would the end state of the latter part of look like? Taking kids away from their families at birth and raising them in state not-quite-orphanages? Even the concept that academics should be valued over other topics should be a matter of family choice. If you want to prioritize music, art, sports, food, entertainment, fitness, religion, or something else over academics, should society over-ride that?

I believe the model you're talking about is a Kibbutz, though I don't think they were state run.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#157

Post by a2tech »

thwayunion wrote: post #148
treis wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having trouble coming up with the right words to make my point. But, to me, this application says "my parents made me do a lot of shit" more than it says that this person is exceptional. What's this kid's resume if he's born in the hood to a single mom instead of a Boston suburb to an associate partner at IBM? IMHO it's sour grapes from someone that tried to game the system but didn't get the prize they wanted.

It's a real shame that this guy posted his son's resume non-anonymously, but I have to agree. Aside from grades and AP scores, it's a lot of "showing up" dressed up as accomplishment. JV track explains itself, the debate stuff is the equivalent of getting third place in one track event at one regional meet, and Eagle Scout is impressive but IMO doesn't show anything that doing well in school doesn't already show. Eve…

I looked at some of those institutions SAT scores and his scores would have been very close to the median scores of them. IE he was just one application in a sea of very similar applications. Obviously he worked really hard and that is impressive, but clearly so did many other people.

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#158

Post by prottog »

a2tech wrote: post #150
fullshark wrote: post #2

This anecdote is really something https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2022/10/sat-score-distribution...

He applied for Computer Science, so I looked at the University of Michigan's Engineering School SAT scores, and he was just a bit over the median score for the engineering school. Since admissions at these schools is slammed with applications its not unreasonable that he just didn't get in because he was in an ocean of similar applications.

Would it not be fair to look at the median score for different racial groups, since we know that many universities do in fact discriminate on the basis of race in admissions?

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#159

Post by [deleted] »

socialismisok wrote: post #22
athew wrote: post #18

I find it very surprising that the term "Asian" lives in this twilight zone where nobody is sure if it includes India, the second largest country in the region. For the SAT distribution tables, the term Asian includes Indians I assume, while the following table from the German professor does not break out India. smh.

The categories come from the US government, I believe. The same reason why the data doesn't include non binary genders, for instance.

[deleted]

Re: SAT score distributions in Michigan

#160

Post by chewbacha »

bloaf wrote: post #131
chewbacha wrote: post #26

I have another spin on it. Of those demographics, asians tend to be very recent migrants ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/09/asian-ameri... ) and migrants tend to be very hard-working within the first generation of migration ( https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2012/07/12/ten-way... ). Some of this could be selection bias (those who choose to move are those who are motivated to seek a better lif…

> Seems like it could be within a margin of error (3 v 5%). There is no margin of error when your sample is the entire population.

There is if you are missing more than 10% and trying to make extrapolations. Also, there is variations between individuals between tests. You’d need to make multiple samples to reduce noise from the test itself.
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