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The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

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Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#451
post #27

This report provides a detailed background of Hans' potential cheating, and detailed breakdowns of certain aspects of chess.com's cheat-detection methodology, including previously unknown (or little known) methods such as window focus change event monitoring and post-focus-change move analysis.[1] The report also reveals Niemann's engine move correlations alongside over two dozen chess Grandmasters who have admitted…

> two dozen chess Grandmasters who have admitted to cheating on chess.com. The fact that online cheating is so widespread chess.com globally has more than 93M members. There is cheating, but a dozen admissions can't be accurately described as "so widespread." Research has shown fewer than 0.02% cheat. While this is mildly shocking, your statement based on 12 grandmaster admissions is a sweeping generalization.

Two dozen is 24, not 12.

This is how many grandmasters admitted cheating, not how many players globally have admitted it.

As of 2021 there were 1,315 active grandmasters. [0]

24/1,315 = ~1.8% of grandmasters admit cheating (give or take a few depending on how many play online chess or are still active). In my opinion, that is a serious problem.

[0] https://chessdelta.com/how-many-chess-grandmasters-are-there...

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#452
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> I find the decsription "lied outright" unfitting Hmm.. if time allows in the next hour or so, I will find his exact quotes from the interview and will definitely edit this out if it is unfair. But my recollection is that Hans stated explicitly that he had never cheated in a serious tournament since he was 12, that he only cheated thereafter in "unrated" games, that he only cheated twice overall, and that he hadn't…

I finally got a chance to look this up, and I think saying that Hans "lied outright" is fair. (Obviously on the assumption that you believe chess.com's analysis of his play on the site, and their claims of Hans' admissions to cheating there.)

I listened to the entirety of Hans' interview again, and also read a transcript thereof. But I could've saved some time because the chess.com report itself quotes (and paraphrases, separately) Hans' statements about his play there, and calls Hans' statements false outright.[1,2,3]

Here is a selection of Hans' direct quotes from the post-Sinquefield interview which are outright falsehoods according to chess.com:[4]

"I have never, ever in my life cheated in an over the board game, or in an online tournament. They were in unrated games."

"Other than when I was 12 years old, I have never, ever, ever--and I would never do that, that is the worst thing I could ever do--cheat in a tournament with prize money."

"Never when I was streaming did I cheat."

"I did this when I was 12 years old. And then when I, and then the second, the other times I did it, it was not even in an over the board tournament, it was not even a prize money online tournament. It was in absolutely random games."

According not only to chess.com's analysis and the evidence they present, but apparently to Niemann's own admissions to them, each of these statements is outright false on their own. (And if they are false, then together they also grossly misrepresent the overall picture of his behavior.) It appears Hans did in fact cheat in rated games, and in cash prize games, as well as cheating while streaming, and while playing against highly rated players in "real" games.

1: "Consistent with the letter we sent Hans privately on September 8, 2022, we are prepared to show within this report that he, in fact, appears to have cheated against multiple opponents in Chess.com prize events (beyond the Titled Tuesday event that Hans admitted to having cheated in when he was 12), Speed Chess Championship Qualifiers, and the PRO Chess League. We also have evidence that he appears to have cheated in sets of rated games on Chess.com against highly-rated, well-known figures in the chess community, some of which he streamed online. These findings contradict Hans’ public statements.

In particular, in interviews given during the 2022 Sinquefield Cup, Hans made several comments to the press about alleged instances of prior cheating :

• “Other than when I was 12 years old, I have never, ever, ever – and I would never do that, that is the worst thing that I could ever do – cheat in a tournament with prize money.”

• “Never when I was streaming did I cheat.”

• “Keep in mind I was 16 years old, I never wanted to hurt anyone, these were random games. I would never – could even fathom d doing it – in a real game.”" -Page 4 of the chess.com report on Neimann.

2:"If you are willing to correct the false statements you made about having never cheated when it mattered (now that you have said these untruths publicly), acknowledge the full breadth of the above violations, and cooperate with us to compete under strict Fair Play measures, Chess.com would be happy to consider bringing you back to our events. In fact, I think it would be a wonderful redemption story for the full truth to come out, for the chess world to see this and acknowledge your talent regardless of your past, and give the community what they deserve: The truth." -Page 58 of the chess.com report on Neimann.

3: "In your interview you mentioned (paraphrased) that you “cheated when you were 12” and then “later when you were 16 in an unrated game”. This directly contradicts our statistical evidence, as well as the conversation you and I had in our private call when you confessed to cheating, and there is written evidence from you that substantially corroborates this. You also contradicted your own statement that you had only cheated in unrated games in the interview by later stating that you did it to gain rating points, which obviously indicates cheating in rated games." -Page 57 of the chess.com report on Neimann.

4: https://youtu.be/CJZuT-_kij0

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#453
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find the decsription "lied outright" unfitting Hmm.. if time allows in the next hour or so, I will find his exact quotes from the interview and will definitely edit this out if it is unfair. But my recollection is that Hans stated explicitly that he had never cheated in a serious tournament since he was 12, that he only cheated thereafter in "unrated" games, that he only cheated twice overall, and that he hadn't…

> that he only cheated twice overall I don’t think he claimed “twice overall” as in “twice exactly”, to be fair, just within a period of time.

Yes, this is good clarification, thank you!

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#454
post #123
post #27

This report provides a detailed background of Hans' potential cheating, and detailed breakdowns of certain aspects of chess.com's cheat-detection methodology, including previously unknown (or little known) methods such as window focus change event monitoring and post-focus-change move analysis.[1] The report also reveals Niemann's engine move correlations alongside over two dozen chess Grandmasters who have admitted…

> [1]Tangentially, this induces an obvious concern about cheat and cheat-detection arms races. A clever cheater might scrutinize this report and refine their cheating plan. For example, they might recognize the need to use a second device (such as a phone) to cheat. They might use the data corpus presented in this report to establish limits on how often they use chess engine moves per game, and they might manage thei…

> I really can't shake my personal feeling that chess as a sport is just simply dead, especially as an online e-sport.

This sent me musing whether we are actually witnessing the emergence of a new type of gamesmanship. If we don't end up killing each other in another global war (sadly there won't be subsequent volumes about "the war no one wanted"), then having men and machines team up in competitive environments is a given. (This is already happening, no doubt, in military settings.)

Maybe new games can be devised, or existing games modified, that can't default to games that are machine vs machine with the human teammates reduced to secretaries in the game. Games designed with AI teammate already in mind. The human role can't be just physical. I wonder what that would be like.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> two dozen chess Grandmasters who have admitted to cheating on chess.com. The fact that online cheating is so widespread chess.com globally has more than 93M members. There is cheating, but a dozen admissions can't be accurately described as "so widespread." Research has shown fewer than 0.02% cheat. While this is mildly shocking, your statement based on 12 grandmaster admissions is a sweeping generalization.

Two dozen is 24, not 12. This is how many grandmasters admitted cheating, not how many players globally have admitted it. As of 2021 there were 1,315 active grandmasters. [0] 24/1,315 = ~1.8% of grandmasters admit cheating (give or take a few depending on how many play online chess or are still active). In my opinion, that is a serious problem. [0] https://chessdelta.com/how-many-chess-grandmasters-are-there...

Even with my careless error, the statement in question is still a sweeping generalization.

> As of 2021

This is a tough number to track down, and you've limited the count by "active," in 2021, but the number is rapidly increasing. According to the FIFA Database as of a few moments ago, there are 1771 chess grandmasters.[1]

24/1771 > In my opinion, that is a serious problem.

Even assuming 1.8% of chess grandmasters are cheaters, this means that 98.2% of them are not. If you tested a 98.2% of a perfect score on a test, would you really think your grade was a serious problem? If you had the chance to retake the test for a replacement score, either better or worse, would you?

[1] https://ratings.fide.com/advaction.phtml?idcode=&name=&title...

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#456
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good design skills have zero correlation with good data analysis skills.

Honestly wonder how much of a HN crowd viewpoint that is. I'm not sure there's too much "correlation" between the two. Instead I'd say that if your job involves communication and data, then that necessitates decent visualisations and whatever "design skills" that entails. Honestly, you don't need "design skills" to make a decent graph ... just the wherewithal to think about what would make a graph clearer/easier to u…

That wherewithal is the design skill. Some people have it, some don't. Some are good with data too, some not.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two dozen is 24, not 12. This is how many grandmasters admitted cheating, not how many players globally have admitted it. As of 2021 there were 1,315 active grandmasters. [0] 24/1,315 = ~1.8% of grandmasters admit cheating (give or take a few depending on how many play online chess or are still active). In my opinion, that is a serious problem. [0] https://chessdelta.com/how-many-chess-grandmasters-are-there...

Even with my careless error, the statement in question is still a sweeping generalization. > As of 2021 This is a tough number to track down, and you've limited the count by "active," in 2021, but the number is rapidly increasing. According to the FIFA Database as of a few moments ago, there are 1771 chess grandmasters.[1] 24/1771 > In my opinion, that is a serious problem. Even assuming 1.8% of chess grandmasters ar…

That's how many grandmasters there are total (1771). I was quoting the number active, hence the hedge of give or take current active / cheating.

Yes, I think cheating more than a fraction of a percent as you originally posited is a detriment to competition.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#458
post #27

This report provides a detailed background of Hans' potential cheating, and detailed breakdowns of certain aspects of chess.com's cheat-detection methodology, including previously unknown (or little known) methods such as window focus change event monitoring and post-focus-change move analysis.[1] The report also reveals Niemann's engine move correlations alongside over two dozen chess Grandmasters who have admitted…

What seems really odd is that they don't have any data accusing him of cheating after his initial 2020 ban/new account creation.

They conclude that while there are several unusual things about his OTB play, there is not enough for them to conclude he probably cheated.

Basically the biggest takeaway here is that he definitely publicly lied about the extent of his cheating prior to his original ban.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#459
post #278

In releasing this report, Chess.com appears to violate their promise of confidentiality expressed in Exhibit C: > As we mentioned earlier, we have made no public statements regarding the reasons for your account closure or our findings, and anything that happens in this conversation will remain confidential. But they did at least hide the player identity, so we only know it's a FIDE top 100 nearly-2700 player. I'm sl…

It ought to be quite easy to identify this person. The report says:

>This person competed in a single event featuring 10 total games in 2020.

They either created a new chess.com account, or totally ceased playing on there around or after July 2020. They were a Top 100 player with almost a 2700 rating.

Those facts combined probably narrow the list to extremely few candidates, perhaps only 1. I don't know chess well enough to identify them.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#460

I think the thing I'd like to have clarified: Why does chess.com care about the results of an OTB game? I can understand their online tournaments being something they care about and why they might rescind an invitation based on these allegations but there's something very strange about them taking it upon themselves to ban him from the platform as a result of his play against someone whose company they're in the proc…

This is something I don't understand, why should FIDE accept any evidence from Chess.com, a completely separate corporate entity? That Hans cheated on chess.com is a fact at this point, but I don't see why that means he should be banned from real OTB tournaments or even from competitor online chess websites like Lichess.
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