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Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

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Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#321

Post by flutas »

simondotau wrote: post #293
flutas wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it will ever be shown as "raw data" like that though. They will most likely only show the current street view, with cars and unknown objects that are in the road.

Absolutely. The point is though that the visualisation isn’t the occupancy network. And the occupancy network is a lot closer to a substitute for ultrasonics than anything shown on car screens. How much closer is hard to guess and likely unknown by anyone commenting in this thread. But I dare say it’s probably closer than some critics assume.

> The point is though that the visualisation isn’t the occupancy network. And the occupancy network is a lot closer to a substitute for ultrasonics than anything shown on car screens.

What is it then? Because it's my car, detecting the occupancy of something that isn't a car that it previously did not show visuals for, and the release notes don't mention anything that would enable this visualization aside from the occupancy network[0].

> Added control for arbitrary low-speed moving volumes from Occupancy Network. This also enables finer control for more precise object shapes that cannot be easily represented by a cuboid primitive. This required predicting velocity at every 3D voxel. We may now control for slow-moving UFOs.

> Upgraded Occupancy Network to use video instead of images from single time step. This temporal context allows the network to be robust to temporary occlusions and enables prediction of occupancy flow. Also, improved ground truth with semantics-driven outlier rejection, hard example mining, and increasing the dataset size by 2.4x.

Additionally the wording they use when presenting the research was vague, they say it's not currently shown, but proceed to show raw visual data. What I take this to mean, is that they won't ever show the raw data, but will build visuals from it. They even detail this by mapping occupied space to "the nearest available item"[2]

FWIW, _if_ this is the occupancy network in action it's lacking a lot. It can't detect thin (~4" squared, floor to ceiling) poles in my garage, but my ultrasonic sensors can. (I know this because my car showed a path going straight into one.) I also can't find anyone discussing the visuals that I am seeing on my car either.

Additionally, the cameras on teslas have a very big blind spot in the front of the car, exactly where the ultrasonics were. [1]

[0]: https://www.notateslaapp.com/software-updates/version/2022.2...

[1]: https://nitter.net/greentheonly/status/1216194238146383879#m

[2]: https://youtu.be/jPCV4GKX9Dw?t=779

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#322

Post by techdragon »

bob778 wrote: post #257
techdragon wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having slightly more than average (researched the industry as an outsider) knowledge of industrial robotics. It turns out million dollar industrial robots are kind of like enterprise software. You "buy" an ERP/CRM/etc but it doesn't just work out of the box, theres weeks and months of work-hours needed to try and get it actually integrated into a company, and it still might not work since software has bugs, humans ar…

As an insider of the automated manufacturing space, your ERP analogy is good but missing one detail: every other large company eventually gets an ERP working. Tesla is an outlier in regard to their manufacturing processes and even much lower margin industries tend to design new factories around the automation platform yet Tesla just...doesn't? I've never worked with Tesla so have no inside info on their situation but…

Not entirely invalidating your point, but it’s worth keeping in mind how many organisations will publicly declare an ERP project has been “finished successfully” in various PR channels, while staff will be stuck shouldering the burden to maintain duct tape and bailing wire hacks for a few years as the ERP that was “finished successfully” has in reality only met 40-80% of its original goals, the project having been either quietly rescoped or just “finished early to the satisfaction of all parties” or any number of other PR bullshit phrases.

I’ve personally witnessed a couple if “successfully deployed ERP projects” which were in reality complete shit shows to the point where lawsuits were considered, and it was only the good old fashioned grease of the professional consultants who started getting worried this might haunt them in the next job after they quit, that kept the gears turning and stopped things getting that far. One of these was barely 50% of originally promised scope, downscoped twice and “successfully completed” 5 years before the internal teams who took over when the consultants were kicked out, gave up and told management they couldn’t deliver and and a new solution should be put to tender.

Oracle and IBM and SAP and the like may be able to always end up delivering, but plenty of clients will walk away partially down the road due to going bankrupt or merging or any one of a number of outcomes because the massive vendors that will “always deliver” might take so long to get there that you can basically just call it what it is, a practical failure… if an ERP is installed in a company but no one ever uses it, was it even deployed?

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#323

Post by ajross »

ethanbond wrote: post #316
ajross wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think people would justifiably throw a hissy fit about that. FWIW, that would be a better argument if the people throwing the hissy fit were the ones who actually ordered cars . Are you waiting on a Tesla, for example? Instead it's the peanut gallery of folks who just want to flog a point about the manufacturer out of some kind of emotional response. Like I said, it's exhausting.

Elon attracts the attention he does, both positive and negative, because he's regarded as a pioneer. IMO the general public does have an interest in trying to ensure 1) unsafe cars don't proliferate across public roads and 2) irresponsible business practices aren't celebrated. Do you think the only people who had a right to be pissed off about Lehman Brothers' collapse were actual Lehman Brothers customers? This is a…

This is exactly my point. We started from a discussion about the availability of ultrasound sensors that the overwhelming majority of new cars don't even have and now we're on to "Tesla is unsafe" ... "Making changes to car configuration is an irresponsible business practice" and (sigh) "It is in the public interest that I be pissed off about this".

It's just exhausting. Can't you find something more productive to be outraged about?

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#324

Post by ethanbond »

ajross wrote: post #323
ethanbond wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon attracts the attention he does, both positive and negative, because he's regarded as a pioneer. IMO the general public does have an interest in trying to ensure 1) unsafe cars don't proliferate across public roads and 2) irresponsible business practices aren't celebrated. Do you think the only people who had a right to be pissed off about Lehman Brothers' collapse were actual Lehman Brothers customers? This is a…

This is exactly my point. We started from a discussion about the availability of ultrasound sensors that the overwhelming majority of new cars don't even have and now we're on to "Tesla is unsafe" ... "Making changes to car configuration is an irresponsible business practice" and (sigh) "It is in the public interest that I be pissed off about this". It's just exhausting. Can't you find something more productive to be…

I don't know where you get the impression I'm outraged? I figure this link is posted on HN because people like conversing about fast-growing companies and their practices, not because it's actually Tesla Owners Car Club News.

It seems extremely odd to come into a discussion then complain about how exhausting the discussion is and then stay in the discussion complaining about how exhausting it still is.

Also note: Most companies don't claim their cars are fully self driving (even with a Beta tag attached), so the analog to other cars missing these sensors is pretty obviously disingenuous.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#325

Post by pxmpxm »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #98
peteradio wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High-end as defined by what besides price? Not necessarily snark, I haven't heard too much good about fit and finish...

People who have never driven a car worth more than $50,000 love the luxury feel of their Teslas. It's been really interesting to see how many people had a Tesla as their first expensive car.

There was a fun stat that model S cars when then first came out had bay far the largest proportion of first-time-in-this-price range buyers. I can't fathom that someone coming from his/her 10th s class would characterize Teslas as luxury.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#326

Post by zaptrem »

davedx wrote: post #244
STRML wrote: post #22

There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. If this were a planned move, the software would already be ready to replace it. It is not. Cars without radar still aren't at parity with the car that have it, although they "fixed" this a few weeks back by simply turning off the radar on the older cars. The parking sensors…

> The parking sensors on the Tesla are really good and very useful. They show a rough outline of what is around you and are displayed very nicely compared to some other cars. It is a real shame to remove this, Perhaps the occupancy network is a good replacement? You're characterizing this as if Tesla Vision won't ever be able to replace it: "impossible to detect obstructions occluded from view by the hood". What if t…

What happens when a small object rolls into that blindspot? What happens when the car goes into deep sleep and the AP computer state is lost? Reloading all those nets takes like 40 seconds on startup from deep sleep.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#327

Post by jfim »

yonaguska wrote: post #305
cameronh90 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do love a good torch, and I keep one on me most of the time. However, I meant non-illuminated phone camera. The new low light sensors combined with AI is incredible. They can see things when it looks pitch black to me. Also not sure how opening a camera is finicky, just double tap the power button and it opens for me, and turning on the flash takes two taps - though I rarely use the flash.

Sounds like I need a new phone then. I'm still on the pixel 3.

Double tapping the power button on Android has been the shortcut to open the camera for quite a long time. It should work on the Pixel 3.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#328

Post by fh973 »

nicbou wrote: post #232
fh973 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 10 year old VW Touran can do it reliably, with only ultrasonic sensors.

Does it drive itself and parallel park?

Yes, it parallel parks perfectly reliable, in gaps that intuitively feel too small.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#329

Post by LightG »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #299
LightG wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These all look like push factors and are serious enough on their own. But I don't even need them. I'm pulled by Hyundai. Their recent design language has me and I'd argue they have the better all around packages. Personally, Telsa aren't even the top dog anymore. It'll take time for others to see it.

The right answer to the problem of "Tesla not having enough sensors" is NOT to rush into the hands of a brand who can't make an engine that doesn't grenade itself. Oh, your engine made it past 50K? Good thing you're cars are gonna get stolen since they were too cheap to include immobilizers!

With respect, it's not a good look to live based on out-of-date facts.
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