Earlier quoted context omitted.
> People have been noting for awhile how often law enforcement just leaves the "seized" coins in the original wallet Do you have any source on that?
Here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33088681
You got me.
Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back
101–110 of 229 posts
Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which means the feds didn't actually seize anything. A copy of the wallet without the passphrase is nothing. If the feds don't have the keys, they don't have the coins. It sounds like Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy - the feds declared "I seize Bitcoin" but nothing happened.
> Which means the feds didn't actually seize anything Seizure is tied to possession, a legal concept [1]. Not control. Courts commonly authorize the seizure assets not yet under the government's physical control. (I agree the terminology is misleading.) [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/seizure
"Feds seize song 'Stairway To Heaven' from Florida Man, surprised to find him listening to it anyway".
Point being, lawyers can pretend that information is property, but some things obey physical laws and other things don't.
(edit) Maybe I'm being unclear, but your link defines seizure as "removes property from an individual's possession" and none of these terms apply here.
Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back
#103Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
of course now anyone who can be traced to a wallet that interacts with these coins is now a criminal for receiving stolen goods, or obstruction of justice or probably a dozen other things.
How is this not the kill-switch for bitcoin? Every bitcoin comes with the risk of having been in a wallet of a criminal. Since all transactions are kept forever, shouldn't every bitcoin be at risk of being seized?
Government doesn't even have to physically seize anything. They just have to say "transacting with these particular coins is illegal". The blacklisted bitcoin is now worth zero USD, as many individuals receiving money from sanctioned people discovered.
I honestly have no idea why bitcoin is still the most valuable cryprocurrency when projects like Monero exist.
Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's an interesting case because it's harder to recover physical assets from a police storage locker than digital. I feel like you missed the whole point the comment you replied to made. If the person who stored the cryptocoins on the physically seized computer had a copy of the private keys on another computer (COMPLETELY NORMAL) and the prosecutor never transferred the coins making the assumption that physically…
>and the prosecutor never transferred the coins making the assumption that physically holding them was good enough, then that is an invaluable lesson they just The prosecutor didn't make that assumption. The prosecutor was unable to move the bitcoin because the prosecutor didn't know the PIN.
So they'd seized a safe that contained a note saying where the money/Bitcoin were hidden, but they didn't have the combination to the safe, and they didn't know if anybody else had a copy of the note.
Calling those "seized bitcoins" is definitely stretching the truth in my opinion. And the Government,ent/prosecution knew this - from the article:
"As a backup, Trezor hardware wallets can generate a “seed phrase,” a combination of as many as 24 words that can re-create those private keys on another device. In essence, anyone who knows the magic words and an additional PIN can take control of the Bitcoin. Unplugging the wallet device and physically locking it away is no protection. Brown warned that Larry could remotely take Bitcoin and that the government would be powerless to stop it. “Until we can secure them and transfer them to a government wallet, those are available for him or his family members to transfer,” he said in court. US District Judge Beryl Howell granted bail anyway."
Having said that, the brother was an idiot for ever thinking he'd get away with it. Unless he was going to torch his houde and fly to Belieze before the cops caught up with him, he was bound to get caught. As the article posts out:
"An informant told them Gary had asked his advice on Bitcoin gambling services, records show. The source believed Gary wanted to use them to mix Bitcoin he took from Larry. Gary is “not the sharpest tool in the shed and did not think through the consequences for his brother” before he moved the Bitcoin, the informant said."
Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
um... $311M will set you up _very well_ for life in many, MANY countries. you just need to get to one without US extradition (or without US extradition for this activity). So, very worth the extra criminal charge if you've been thinking ahead.
In the very unlikely dream scenario you mention, you are alone in a disreputable nation with no connections. You are weak and a tempting target for blackmail, robbery, kidnapping, and extortion. A bounty is placed on your head by the most powerful nation in the history of the world. You would think the failed track record of knowledgeable criminals like Gary and Ulbricht would convince the crypto-anarchist losers tha…
> A bounty is placed on your head by the most powerful nation in the history of the world.
Seriously? The US does that?
Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back
#107> The prosecutors accuse Harmon of a very unusual crime: remotely swiping Bitcoin... As opposed to what, "locally" swiping Bitcoin? > ... Bitcoin stored on a computer device the government had already seized in another case Yeah that's your problem Mr. Prosecutor, you have no idea where bitcoins are "stored" or what the device you have seized is. Which leads me to think you are not qualified to "seize" this type of a…
>It's simple, like all crypto newbies this prosecutor has just learned: Not your keys, not your coins. The US government can throw your ass in prison for the rest of your life so yes, it is their coins. This is the basis of all government power and in a lot of cases, like this, it's good
What happened to Kevin Mitnick is a cautionary tale that you can be held for at least five years without bail before you get the opportunity to plead your case.
Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
How is this not the kill-switch for bitcoin? Every bitcoin comes with the risk of having been in a wallet of a criminal. Since all transactions are kept forever, shouldn't every bitcoin be at risk of being seized?
Government doesn't even have to physically seize anything. They just have to say "transacting with these particular coins is illegal". The blacklisted bitcoin is now worth zero USD, as many individuals receiving money from sanctioned people discovered. I honestly have no idea why bitcoin is still the most valuable cryprocurrency when projects like Monero exist.
You are right vis-a-vis sanctions and ( based on what I understand ) Monero at this time. I think the reason this is not a killswitch parent is referring to is that there is just too much money on the line for the government. LEOs are apparently still trying to figure out how do it right. Last bigger conference I was a part of representative discussed some of the less appreciated logistics ( for example, you can't sell that much of bitcoin and not tank the price for one ). It is different from auctioning Tony Montana's yacht.
Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Which means the feds didn't actually seize anything Seizure is tied to possession, a legal concept [1]. Not control. Courts commonly authorize the seizure assets not yet under the government's physical control. (I agree the terminology is misleading.) [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/seizure
"Feds seize song 'Stairway To Heaven' from Florida Man, surprised to find him listening to it anyway". Point being, lawyers can pretend that information is property, but some things obey physical laws and other things don't. (edit) Maybe I'm being unclear, but your link defines seizure as "removes property from an individual's possession" and none of these terms apply here.
> lawyers can pretend that information is property, but some things obey physical laws and other things don't
Free information is difficult to control. We have to add things to it, like DRM, to make it compatible with the legal concepts of possession and ownership.
Crypto, however, is different. One can control it. Had the FBI been able to move the coins to their own wallet, they would have controlled them. Crypto is information re-structured in the image of our legal senses around property. It's the antithesis of free information. (That’s why two people can look at it and simultaneously see profoundly-pure meaning and infinitely-valid meaninglessness. Legal versus tangible. Possession without substance. Money.)
All that aside, ownership and control have a long history of separating. The traditional method of reconciliation was violence. The FBI "owned" those coins on "seizing" them and thus legally "possessed" them [1], even if they didn't "control" them.
Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Government doesn't even have to physically seize anything. They just have to say "transacting with these particular coins is illegal". The blacklisted bitcoin is now worth zero USD, as many individuals receiving money from sanctioned people discovered. I honestly have no idea why bitcoin is still the most valuable cryprocurrency when projects like Monero exist.
You are right vis-a-vis sanctions and ( based on what I understand ) Monero at this time. I think the reason this is not a killswitch parent is referring to is that there is just too much money on the line for the government. LEOs are apparently still trying to figure out how do it right. Last bigger conference I was a part of representative discussed some of the less appreciated logistics ( for example, you can't se…
Selling a giant pile of Bitcoin and tanking the price is a feature, not a bug...