Earlier quoted context omitted.
There’s no denying that capitalism is “grow or die”, but so is socialism. Like capitalism, socialism needs working adults to outnumber both retired seniors and non working age children. The only way socialism can avoid the constant growth requirement is if they have a “you only eat if you work” rule. Historically, socialism’s rate of pollution is on par with capitalism
There are a lot of people proposing models of economic development that don't necessarily rely on growth. There's a lot of work done on degrowth and similar modes of production. Though I haven't really read too much into it (just getting into this topic recently) a lot of the authors are staunch critics of capitalism so it leads me to believe that there are other systems out there that aren't necessarily capitalists…
Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature
131–140 of 170 posts
Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you back that up with evidence? I'm not sure what the situation is for Europe/the UK, but for the US it really doesn't seem to be the case that we are outsourcing our emissions: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/no-the-us-didnt-outsource-...
Maybe it's not to the extent that people are saying, but the charts clearly show that the EU and the US do outsource their emissions.
Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature
#133Do you know a story about boy who cried wolf all the time? Good job activists, you done it.
Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Energy is the lifeblood of humanity. We can't demonize it, the only path forward is to embrace it and find a way to utilize the near infinite energy available to us in the universe in a fashion that is environmentally safe. I didn't say that energy was bad. What I wrote was > Capitalism incentivizes increased economic output, which incentivizes increased energy consumption. Barring regulations to internalize the ex…
I guess I was just saying that humans incentivize energy consumption, not capitalism. Capitalism maybe just facilitates it since that is what people want? That was my premise.
Capitalism is about a lot more than accumulation of capital.
How about deployment of capital? Markets?
>Capitalism is a grow-or-die system. If accumulation declines, the result is economic crisis. The answer of the system is to boost accumulation.
Doesn't have to be
>speak of economic growth as a principal problem, and of the need for a steady-state economy as a solution
This I agree with but it's easier to conceptualize with a stable world population flourishing at a level where renewable resources are abundant.
>For capitalism, accumulation of capital is everything
This is a repeating theme, at one extreme
A political frame of mind may be socialist, communist, democratic, or things like that whether or not there is capitalism involved.
Even though people say there is always money in politics, there doesn't have to be either. Any of these different political systems could exist or function without money if people tried hard enough. It surely would be a way different civilization, so unfamiliar to us that it would be shocking. But maybe not that unfamiliar to more than one of the lost civilizations of many bygone millennia.
Now for capitalism you really do need money, other people's money to be specific. It's economic, not absolutlely required to be political either even though that's how it turned out to most people's experience.
As we see in democratic, socialist, and communist political systems, there are so often greedy capitalists who accumulate but do not leverage to produce or add real value. All suffer as the wealth needed to feed the accumulation is sucked out of the overall "economy".
Yeah, you need money to be a capitalist, but so many times almost nobody has enough so they mostly really "need money badly" for survival even if they are not greedy by nature.
OTOH many major worthwhile projects could never be achieved without excessive accumulation, which should ideally be leveraged into value added.
Greed is the fundamental problem to me more than capitalism itself, that's where the accumulation amounts to value consumed rather than value produced. One is positive, the other negative, once you get a critical mass of greed you can be sure many major worthwhile projects will never be achieved.
Regardless, different currencies have different environmental impacts.
It's not just the energy and raw materials that went into your EV that makes it have a bigger carbon footprint relative to the motor fuel savings. The money you have to earn and the work you have to do to pay for the thing bring the total up even more when it comes to environmental cost. The same consumer item can have a way different cost for different people.
Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
No. It's the same point. Capitalism is fundamentally incompatable with the commons, long term good, managing externalities, or wellbeing for all. If we don't control capital it will continue exactly the same destruction it always has. How we do that and to what extent is an open question, but first we have to acknowledge the reality of problems that markets are the wrong tool for.
The mainstream developed country view is to regulate capitalism and have government fund big bets and basic research, not dismiss capitalism as fundamentally incompatible with everything we're supposed to value.
The solution by your own words is to have less capitalism. Which is what everyone else is arguing for.
Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature
#136Is every form of industrialization, from the USSR to the UK to the US to China, capitalist? Is the current energy transition, funded by massive amounts of capital, and the result of industrialization of technology, somehow less capitalistic? Are the ESG efforts somehow less capitalist? Sometimes, our mental frames are traps rather than tools for understanding the world. This essay makes me think that this person is q…
> You know what else is grow-or-die? Life itself. All of life is a series of exponential growth, followed by slower growth. It's all logistic curves. Isn't that true in pathological cases only? Like when a bacterium takes over an entire petri dish? In balanced ecosystems, I don't think what you say holds (there may be logistic curves but it's not one species that takes over the entire habitat). In contrast, in capita…
Disease and escape from disease are omni-present in biology, not mere pathology. Ever present extinction of species, ever present evolution of species, ever present birth and death of individuals, all make real life an ever-changing unbalanced dynamic. Life is ever changing, ever "growing" yet somehow always dying.
Follow the simple population models in biology, and you get chaotic boom and bust, feast and famine.
"Capitalism" is the same as biology here. Claims of requirements of ever-present growth are a factual. Capitalism survives recessions, depressions, just fine. There is no requirement of global growth for capitalism to survive, and the supposed "logic" that leads to that conclusion is ridiculous, full of holes. For the past decades, even the supposed "capitalism needs ever expanding amounts of energy" has been proven to be false. GDP is not tied to energy, GDP is tied to whatever humans value. Which is ever changing, ever evolving.
I think that the critique of capitalism embodied in this essay is a century too old. It misses the basic understanding of the past 100 years of biological discovery and better understanding of complex systems that happened not only in biology, but in many other academic fields.
Life persists even with individual species continually expanding exponentially until they hit population collapse. Capitalism is the same. And even relegating capitalism to only the "completely unregulated" system, whatever that means (all property rights exist within a legal system with regulation), capitalism does not tends towards ever-present monopolies. That at best leads to feudalism, to autocracy like in Russia, but feudalism/autocracy is itself unstable.
Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not if all the nations do it together.
Ah yes, truly an easy sell. Let's try telling that to the developing nations who's people are just getting access to clean water, electricity, refrigeration and transportation first.
“We will do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard”
Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature
#138Is every form of industrialization, from the USSR to the UK to the US to China, capitalist? Is the current energy transition, funded by massive amounts of capital, and the result of industrialization of technology, somehow less capitalistic? Are the ESG efforts somehow less capitalist? Sometimes, our mental frames are traps rather than tools for understanding the world. This essay makes me think that this person is q…
There’s no denying that capitalism is “grow or die”, but so is socialism. Like capitalism, socialism needs working adults to outnumber both retired seniors and non working age children. The only way socialism can avoid the constant growth requirement is if they have a “you only eat if you work” rule. Historically, socialism’s rate of pollution is on par with capitalism
I think it's important to specify about what individual components "grow-or-die" here, because I'm having trouble agreeing that capitalism or socialism, as systems, are such.
Individual entities in capitalism, embodied in the concept of the firm, are not necessarily grow-or-die. A growing firm has a much easier life, as there is more slack in all parts of the system, and they can be less efficient in their allocation of resources. But a stagnant firm does not necessarily die. An accountant that is growing, or even shrinking, is not doomed to be replaced by another, growing accountant. Large firms can be stagnant for generations without dying. IBM is still around, right?
And similarly, even if a firm is growing massively, accumulating capital and collecting surplus value, that doesn't mean that the GDP as a whole is growing, because so many other large firms could be contracting.
The question of how the retired class of people eats, and how to distribute resources between younger workers and elder retirees is solvable in many ways, under socialism and under capitalism. Many of China's problems stem from inadequate retirement distribution, despite supposedly being a socialist or communist country.
This is why I feel that these discussions are completely pointless, our abstractions are no longer useful for describing the material reality of people. And we get ridiculous articles like the original post here that cod not even provide an adequate definition of capitalism to describe what they are talking about.
Its all monks debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, IMHO, pointless discussions disconnected from reality.
Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature
#139COVID lockdowns didn't put a dent in climate change and caused immense suffering - and they were pretty tame for a "lockdown". We'd have to make suffering much, much worse, and permanent, to have any effect whatsoever. This will never happen. Until there's an energy source that's more abundant than fossil fuels at the same or lower cost, this is just how it is going to be. Better to worry about how to adapt.
1) eat significantly less meat 2) live in denser urban settings rather than suburbs.
Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
WFH reduced the number of vehicles on the road and the traffic is still well below pre-Covid level.
Are personal vehicles are significant chunk of pollution? At any rate, lockdowns were a good glimpse of how much nicer things are without all the cars around.
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/air-quality-a-year-after-...