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Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

globalpolicyjournal.com

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Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#21

Post by jshen »

Supermancho wrote: post #13
jshen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are conflating a few things. The idea of property came into existence long before capitalism, which seems to be the linchpin of your take. Are you suggesting we return to being hunter gatherers? If not, I’m not sure what you are proposing.

> The idea of property came into existence long before capitalism, which seems to be the linchpin of your take. That is not what I understood. I understood a simplified definition of property under modern capitalism. Capitalist property value is overwhelmingly limited to physical utility and not to consequence of consumption. There are a few exceptions, in various countries and industry, notwithstanding. I did not se…

Prior to capitalism, I know of no system where “consequence of consumption” was a major aspect of the system. I’m trying to figure out where capitalism becomes a factor here.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#22

Post by titzer »

verdverm wrote: post #8
aussiesnack wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This seems to be a more general problem than something which is the result of capitalism Sure, but the point is that dismantling of ecosystems is capitalism's central organising principle. It's what capitalism is : denote sophisticated evolved ecosystems as "property" rather than world, then allow the "owners" to dismantle them to create crude technological systems that require ongoing inputs from the outputs of pr…

The earth and life have survived several cataclysmic events. Why would this time > end only with the death of the living planet Certainly the CO2 PPM will not cause this https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2021/02/15/co2-dip-dinosau... > Until about 215 million years ago, the Triassic period had experienced extremely high CO2 levels, at around 4,000 parts per million — about 10 times higher than today. But between 215…

> astroid large enough to cause the surface to liquify (into molton rock)

Well, asteroid collisions follow a power law; the bigger the collision, the less often they happen. They get rarer the older the solar system gets, as they are consumed (AFAWCT).

But asteroids aren't self-replicating and they don't tell themselves how moral it is to eat everything in sight for the sake of some three letter acronym called GDP.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#23

Post by titzer »

LatteLazy wrote: post #7

Capitalism just values what people value. If nature is worth more as a tourist attraction than a farm, that is what it will be. I am not making excuses for capitalism here. I am just saying: you can either overthrow global capitalism and replace it with some new perfect system no one knows about yet OR we can start valuing different things as a society...

> Capitalism just values what people value.

Except capitalism's built-in incentives keep causing this huge megaphone to blare out CONSUME at a deafening volume 24/7...

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#25

Post by titzer »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #18
dbingham wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a bit of a semantic dispute, but not an unimportant one. We are causing a major extinction event that is up there with the worst ones the Earth has experienced. That said, the end result is likely to be that we either go extinct or come very close and the remaining life on Earth picks up the pieces and starts re-evolving new biodiversity from the diversity bottleneck. It's happened before and life on Earth, as…

I think we have the technology now (or in the next 100 years) to move some of our people into moon bases here on earth. If I were Musk I would be building these now.

Yes, a dead space rock with no resources will save us from our overconsumption of the resources of the one non-dead planet we know of.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#26

Post by _8j50 »

Hear me out: "Climate change" is a terrible phrase, of course climate changes, when talking to regular people that's like saying "water flow" to describe flooding. "Climate destabilization" or something akin to that would communicate what is happening better to the people that vote.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#27

Post by datadata »

titzer wrote: post #19

Nah, capitalism is just the most efficient system for economic growth. It's economic growth that's driving climate change, and economic growth is driven by population growth, reduction in poverty, and the hedonistic treadmill. It doesn't matter what -ism you put on it, climate change is driven by burning fossil fuels and every -ism would do the same. Fossil fuels are a very decentralized incentive problem; they are e…

The valuing of economic growth seems to be almost required as a Darwinian feature of nations. Resolve as a nation to value economic growth less than your neighbors, and you will soon be overpowered by them.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#28

Post by nsxwolf »

COVID lockdowns didn't put a dent in climate change and caused immense suffering - and they were pretty tame for a "lockdown". We'd have to make suffering much, much worse, and permanent, to have any effect whatsoever.

This will never happen. Until there's an energy source that's more abundant than fossil fuels at the same or lower cost, this is just how it is going to be. Better to worry about how to adapt.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#29

Post by titzer »

datadata wrote: post #27
titzer wrote: post #19

Nah, capitalism is just the most efficient system for economic growth. It's economic growth that's driving climate change, and economic growth is driven by population growth, reduction in poverty, and the hedonistic treadmill. It doesn't matter what -ism you put on it, climate change is driven by burning fossil fuels and every -ism would do the same. Fossil fuels are a very decentralized incentive problem; they are e…

The valuing of economic growth seems to be almost required as a Darwinian feature of nations. Resolve as a nation to value economic growth less than your neighbors, and you will soon be overpowered by them.

Yes! This is one of the many bad incentives.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#30

Post by abstrctComp »

jshen wrote: post #11
aussiesnack wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This seems to be a more general problem than something which is the result of capitalism Sure, but the point is that dismantling of ecosystems is capitalism's central organising principle. It's what capitalism is : denote sophisticated evolved ecosystems as "property" rather than world, then allow the "owners" to dismantle them to create crude technological systems that require ongoing inputs from the outputs of pr…

I think you are conflating a few things. The idea of property came into existence long before capitalism, which seems to be the linchpin of your take. Are you suggesting we return to being hunter gatherers? If not, I’m not sure what you are proposing.

Capitalism is a composition of prior cognitive ideas. A required parameter is value assignment in relative to some shared value store.

The root of the problem is assigning authority to a minority. Consolidation of logistics has real resource wins, but we keep empowering grown children who think they’re beating a direct path to Star Trek TNG, or some other vague “greater good”, usually wrapped in memes of forever human prosperity and expansion. Never mind no theory of science says it’s actually achievable with the resources available on Earth. The morality of handing an aristocracies demands of fealty off to the future is suspect as well. I’m sure it’s merely a coincidence billions are spent selling that hype. Oh wait, behavioral economics is the intentional study of manufacturing consent; we manipulate the quirks of biology religion happened upon. My mistake.

Giving stocks value relative to dollars is optional. Let them keep ownership via ephemeral objects. I don’t think Tesla or MS shares are worth anything. But I’m trapped in a police state where my agency has to comply with the billions who believe otherwise.

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