Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

tldr; an okay summary of why we shouldn't expect system change to result in a better approach to the environment - extraordinary Soviet excesses, Chinese words vs reality; followed by a sui generis clarion call for system change. ?!?!?

I'm reminded of a recent study showing that autocratic systems lie and claim more than twice the economic growth they're actually getting; with China the lead liar. Includes a nice graph. You can believe the same is true of autocratic reports about how nice they are to the environment; because bad news isn't passed up the chain of command.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#5

Post by aussiesnack » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 9:02 PM UTC

verdverm wrote: post #2

Didn't Europe cut down most of it's forests before capitalism had a name? Are communist systems much different in their treatment of nature? This seems to be a more general problem than something which is the result of capitalism

> This seems to be a more general problem than something which is the result of capitalism

Sure, but the point is that dismantling of ecosystems is capitalism's central organising principle. It's what capitalism is: denote sophisticated evolved ecosystems as "property" rather than world, then allow the "owners" to dismantle them to create crude technological systems that require ongoing inputs from the outputs of prior evolved systems. The process of converting evolved ecosystems into technological ones is economic 'growth' - a mislabel for a 2 to 3 century process that can end only with the death of the living planet, or of capitalism, whichever comes first.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#6

Post by polotics » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 9:03 PM UTC

verdverm wrote: post #2

Didn't Europe cut down most of it's forests before capitalism had a name? Are communist systems much different in their treatment of nature? This seems to be a more general problem than something which is the result of capitalism

Yes indeed. Capitalism is novel in as much as it actually puts a value on many more things than other economic systems, so you could even say that it could set the fair Net Present Value of growing a tree, or of scrubbing CO2 to stay below 400ppn: what time-discount should be applied, what level of risk is acceptable for whom (any Pakistanis here?) are just input variables...

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#7

Post by LatteLazy » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 9:04 PM UTC

Capitalism just values what people value. If nature is worth more as a tourist attraction than a farm, that is what it will be.

I am not making excuses for capitalism here. I am just saying: you can either overthrow global capitalism and replace it with some new perfect system no one knows about yet OR we can start valuing different things as a society...

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#8

Post by verdverm » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 9:06 PM UTC

aussiesnack wrote: post #5

verdverm wrote: post #2

Didn't Europe cut down most of it's forests before capitalism had a name? Are communist systems much different in their treatment of nature? This seems to be a more general problem than something which is the result of capitalism

> This seems to be a more general problem than something which is the result of capitalism Sure, but the point is that dismantling of ecosystems is capitalism's central organising principle. It's what capitalism is : denote sophisticated evolved ecosystems as "property" rather than world, then allow the "owners" to dismantle them to create crude technological systems that require ongoing inputs from the outputs of pr…

The earth and life have survived several cataclysmic events. Why would this time

> end only with the death of the living planet

Certainly the CO2 PPM will not cause this

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2021/02/15/co2-dip-dinosau...

> Until about 215 million years ago, the Triassic period had experienced extremely high CO2 levels, at around 4,000 parts per million — about 10 times higher than today. But between 215 and 212 million years ago, the CO2 concentration halved, dropping to about 2,000ppm.

Nor would something equivalent to the asteroid that caused the last mass extinction

The two things I know of are a solar flare that blows away the atmosphere and an astroid large enough to cause the surface to liquify (into molton rock)

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#9

Post by anm89 » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 9:10 PM UTC

What part of elected governments printing money and handing it out to large companies is the part where capitalism killed the environment?

We don't have capitalism as much as China isn't socialist or communist. We have corporate socialism with a tiny bread and circuses welfare state bolted on for optics. We have elected to annihilate our planet by decree.

It's not capitalism that people hate. It's humanity

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#10

Post by aussiesnack » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

verdverm wrote: post #8

aussiesnack wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This seems to be a more general problem than something which is the result of capitalism Sure, but the point is that dismantling of ecosystems is capitalism's central organising principle. It's what capitalism is : denote sophisticated evolved ecosystems as "property" rather than world, then allow the "owners" to dismantle them to create crude technological systems that require ongoing inputs from the outputs of pr…

The earth and life have survived several cataclysmic events. Why would this time > end only with the death of the living planet Certainly the CO2 PPM will not cause this https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2021/02/15/co2-dip-dinosau... > Until about 215 million years ago, the Triassic period had experienced extremely high CO2 levels, at around 4,000 parts per million — about 10 times higher than today. But between 215…

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