The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman • Hacker News Board

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#91

Post by tedunangst » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:10 AM UTC

jfghi wrote: post #55

a-dub wrote: post #24

doing the statistical analysis and all is pretty cool, but honestly, can't they just challenge him to play at his rating in a secure environment? his learning curve is a little steeper than the others... that doesn't convince me the otb games were fraudulent.

That would be interesting. Have a chess bunker somewhere with 100s of games against a variety of opponents. I think at first there would be some nerves but over time the statistics would become clear. Perhaps there could be a 10 game burn-in.

And as a competing grand master, I want to be a test subject in this bunker why?

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#92

Post by nwienert » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:10 AM UTC

erdevs wrote: post #60

htrqball wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> I find the decsription "lied outright" unfitting Hmm.. if time allows in the next hour or so, I will find his exact quotes from the interview and will definitely edit this out if it is unfair. But my recollection is that Hans stated explicitly that he had never cheated in a serious tournament since he was 12, that he only cheated thereafter in "unrated" games, that he only cheated twice overall, and that he hadn't…

> that he only cheated twice overall

I don’t think he claimed “twice overall” as in “twice exactly”, to be fair, just within a period of time.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#93

Post by chucksmash » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:12 AM UTC

Lerc wrote: post #85

chucksmash wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't take this to mean that everybody cheats, or everybody at the top cheats, as a sibling comment has stated. Wikipedia cites the number of grandmasters as "almost 2000" so even 100 GM cheaters is still a small amount (modulo the ones no longer living I guess, who likely are not playing on chess.com). Elsewhere in the report chess.com gives a figure for number of players they believe have cheated on the site f…

This article https://en.chessbase.com/post/thirteen-super-grandmasters says The history of the game of chess knows around 30 players who have at some point exceeded the dream mark of 2600 Elo points. On the other hand this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chess_players_by_peak_... puts 125 at over 2700

I don't think the list of other confessed GM cheaters has this same qualifier of "is a super GM" or "is ranked above 2700," however.

Grandmaster rank is achieved via a peak Elo of 2500 plus gaining two grandmaster norms[1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_(chess)#Current_re...

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#94

Post by grog454 » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:12 AM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #75

erdevs wrote: post #27

This report provides a detailed background of Hans' potential cheating, and detailed breakdowns of certain aspects of chess.com's cheat-detection methodology, including previously unknown (or little known) methods such as window focus change event monitoring and post-focus-change move analysis.[1] The report also reveals Niemann's engine move correlations alongside over two dozen chess Grandmasters who have admitted…

>The fact that online cheating is so widespread even among top chess players is certainly news to many, including me. Not to me. When the stakes of winning are so damn valuable, sometimes literally so, it would be patently stupid to not cheat and increase your odds of winning. Remember: Cheating is only a problem if you're caught. If you're never caught, cheating is completely legitimate. These aren't games of pleasu…

> Cheating is only a problem if you're caught.

I don't agree with blanket statements like that but I think there's a kernel of truth in your mindset that many people are oblivious to.

Chess, as a competitive game with meaningful stakes, is obsolete. It became obsolete when the first computer outplayed the reigning human champion, and it's been gradually becoming more obvious. Recent events have started to demonstrate precisely why: people are becoming better at cheating at chess way faster than they're getting better at playing chess.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#95

Post by bombcar » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:14 AM UTC

nevinera wrote: post #54

wsc981 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can still cheat with some hidden hardware I guess [0]. A full body inspection of each player would be required as well. —— [0]: https://github.com/RonSijm/ButtFish

Most of the _plausible_ systems involve a one-way link, where an observer is running the engine and supplying information to the player through some system that is perceptible to the player and nobody else. Forcing the player to pass information about the board state _outward_ certainly doesn't make cheating impossible, but it makes it a whole lot harder - input devices that can't be observed are much more difficult.

Maybe Neimann’s a cyborg - more machine than man now.

But yeah, no spectators and a delay should be pretty effective OTB.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#96

Post by ajhurliman » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:15 AM UTC

noncoml wrote: post #43

NotYourLawyer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An admitted cheater has been playing suspiciously. “No reason” lol.

They could have chosen to ban him for life when they caught him cheating. I would have no sympathy for him in that case. But the document paints a different picture. He cheated, and they agreed to re-enable his account if he promised to not cheat again. According to chess.com he kept his promise. So why the sudden new ban? I would agree with you that the initial cheating was enough for lifetime ban. But chess.com dec…

Don't expect an honest report from chess.com, think about how that conversation would go in the event he _was_ cheating and they caught him:

Public: "So he's been cheating recently?"

Chess.com: "Oh yeah, he cheats all the time. Everyone does, really. Online chess is like 50% cheaters/bots, don't expect any real humans here, this is like 10x worse than Twitter."

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#97

Post by taylorportman » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:15 AM UTC

I learned chess late and enjoy playing it, through mistakes, at a different pace... so, in spite of the numerous headlines, I don't get it. Competitively, cheating should be meaningless - and/else what kind of society has people playing chess for food? Perhaps I should read the article. current mood, tipsy

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#98

Post by ajhurliman » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:17 AM UTC

One way to settle it: Grudge match... in an isolated room, fully naked, x-ray scans, in a Faraday cage, no coverage until the match is over.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#99

Post by Lerc » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:19 AM UTC

chucksmash wrote: post #93

Lerc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article https://en.chessbase.com/post/thirteen-super-grandmasters says The history of the game of chess knows around 30 players who have at some point exceeded the dream mark of 2600 Elo points. On the other hand this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chess_players_by_peak_... puts 125 at over 2700

I don't think the list of other confessed GM cheaters has this same qualifier of "is a super GM" or "is ranked above 2700," however. Grandmaster rank is achieved via a peak Elo of 2500 plus gaining two grandmaster norms[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_(chess)#Current_re...

https://ratings.fide.com/profile/2093596 says Hans Niemann has a rating of 2699

You were replying to a comment that said

"Anonymous Confessed GM"s on the cheating list, most of them with a rating much higher than Neimann's.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#100

Post by maegul » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:20 AM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #50

maegul wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about those games … but isn’t the incomplete/hidden information a fundamental difference from chess and how easy it is to cheat?

Only partly. In DOTA for example one of the more common cheats is scripting that provides the player with reaction time more like a pro in triggering items and abilities.

That makes lots of sense for quick real time games. But getting back to my point about how integral computer engines are in chess for training/preparation ... a script to enhance reaction times seems much more like doping in sports where it probably doesn't improve the player's intrinsic abilities only their performance.