EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024 • Hacker News Board

Re: EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

#791

Post by crote » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

speleding wrote: post #696

TheYumasi wrote: post #555

As an EU citizen, I am really happy with this decision. I am an iPhone user, but having an iPhone is not ubiquitous here, almost all of my friends/special other, use an Android phone with USB-C. Most of their laptops, Mac or not, use or allow USB-C for charging. This as been the case for a few years now, yet, if I go somewhere for more than a full day and forget my lighting cable, my phone will become a useless paper…

The main problem I have with USB-C is that it is not a particularly good standard for power delivery. For one, USB-C is not "IP rated" for use in the kitchen or the bathroom, so you still need separate chargers there. Also the USB-C connector supports fast data delivery, which makes it a lot more expensive than a connector that focusses on power only. A standard that would do just power delivery <100W and works in da…

Agree on the IP rating, that is definitely not ideal - although excusable in practice.

Regarding cost: the fast data is optional. Charging-only usb-c receptables are available for $0.025 / each. To be fair, a micro-b can be found for $0.015 so it is more expensive, but it's not exactly going to bankrupt anyone.

Re: EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

#792

Post by Moru » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 5:42 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #708

codexb wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing wise or moral about this decision. Mandating a technology standard, purely for personal preference and convenience reasons -- not for reasons related to safety, or pollution, or security -- especially for things that change as fast as phones, is one of the most short-sighted and naive things any government could do. There's a long history of Apple using proprietary connectors to achieve performance sp…

Apple hasn't changed the 'fast-changing' lightning connector since 2012, and USB-A lasted from 1996 to, well, present. USB-C came out in 2014 and is likely going to outlive us both. Connectors simply don't change that fast, and I'm not sure why people think they do. I think even the EU can regulate on that kind of schedule.

The only reason connectors would change fast is to sell another cable and charger every time you buy a phone.

Re: EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

#793

Post by whakim » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #752

funklute wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A political organization like EU has no say in this. This is the short-sighted view. The unguided free market very often makes "decisions" that are detrimental to society as a whole, and it is absolutely necessary for political organisations to correct for this.

Society and legislators should only forbid harmful action. Not doing something helpful is very different than doing something hurtful. Compelling helpful action leads to all kinds of absurd conclusions. For example, that we should we compel doctors to work more hours because anytime they spend at home is to the detriment of their patients.

Obviously not. If doctors can't take care of their patients within a normal working day, the answer is to have more doctors rather than make the existing ones work unsustainably long hours.

Re: EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

#794

Post by Deukhoofd » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #772

Deukhoofd wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law just makes it so that a single industry standard must be followed. Changing this standard is fairly easy, it just requires the European Commission to amend it. This means that if there's a better connector, USB-IF (being made up out of most of the people actually designing the hardware using it) can just release a new standard and get it approved. Edit: It's actually the Commission, not parliament that's allo…

> Changing this standard is fairly easy, it just requires the European Commission to amend it. Is this sentence intended to be sarcastic? I can imagine nothing more draconian and backwards than having to lobby a political organization for permission to do something innovative and outside the norm.

> something innovative and outside the norm.

They are explicitly trying to avoid this, where everyone has their own "innovative" proprietary charger.

It is fairly easy for an organization such as USB-IF to put it forward to the commission when they have a new standard, considering it means that the industry has already decided on the new standard. If a new cable is improvement enough that it warrants a new standard, I don't doubt that the industry as a whole will try and make a push for it.

Re: EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

#795

Post by zimpenfish » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 5:44 PM UTC

nottorp wrote: post #260

zimpenfish wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This time around it was the sim tray. Only in the US, I believe. My UK iPhone 14 certainly has a SIM tray with a physical SIM in it - lucky, really, because my provider doesn't support eSIMs. [edit: just checked and it seems my provider is the only big one that doesn't support them.]

> just checked and it seems my provider is the only big one that doesn't support them And how about the small ones? I see eSim as limiting choice. First the provider must support it. Second they have to support it and be compatible with my phone. Third, how do you switch providers with an eSim? Do you need to contact servers for both the provider you're leaving and the one you're switching to? What if one of them is…

> And how about the small ones? I see eSim as limiting choice.

I think most of the UK's small providers are just virtual providers (MVNOs)backed onto one of the big ones - eSIM support would presumably just be an option they select.

> Third, how do you switch providers with an eSim?

Haven't checked but I suspect it's exactly the same as porting your number with a physical SIM which, in the UK, is basically either a webform or phoning up to get a code from customer service.

> How likely is it that the provider you're turning off can put in some innocent administrative hurdles?

In the UK, zero, because they are explicitly prohibited from putting up any kind of obstruction to people wanting to move providers.

Re: EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

#796

Post by sbuk » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 5:45 PM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #255

sbuk wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly if the quality of USB-C ports on Thinkpads in anything to go by.

Have thinkpads 2+ years but don't have any issues. What is the problem with the ports?

Had 2 Thinkpads through work from new - x280 and P14s. Both, within a month, had issues with the cable falling out of the socket. Tried several different cables, all fell out. The build quality is shitty by-and-large; I currently have keyboard keys that squeak and creek on the P series, cheap, plasticky and overpriced rubbish.

Re: EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

#797

Post by datavirtue » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #744

codexb wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing wise or moral about this decision. Mandating a technology standard, purely for personal preference and convenience reasons -- not for reasons related to safety, or pollution, or security -- especially for things that change as fast as phones, is one of the most short-sighted and naive things any government could do. There's a long history of Apple using proprietary connectors to achieve performance sp…

It gets kind of lost in the summary, but only devices that are rechargeable via a wired cable have to be chargable via USB-C. So going fully wireless is perfectly legal. It's also perfectly legal to offer other charging ports in addition to USB-C, though that's less likely to happen in phones. And while this regulation puts some limitations on innovation in connectors, Thunderbolt shows that there is lots of room to…

Permitting wireless charging without a USB-C option basically topedos the legislation. This whole affair is going to end up as an embarrassing meme.

Re: EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

#798

Post by Deukhoofd » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

lvass wrote: post #423

Deukhoofd wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law just makes it so that a single industry standard must be followed. Changing this standard is fairly easy, it just requires the European Commission to amend it. This means that if there's a better connector, USB-IF (being made up out of most of the people actually designing the hardware using it) can just release a new standard and get it approved. Edit: It's actually the Commission, not parliament that's allo…

Words of Comission spokesperson, 2060: We're fully aware of Deukhoofd's words and even though they aren't in the letter of law, we're still working hard on approving a better connector. Unfortunately as all things in life, there are tradeoffs with every single change, so we're planning to come up with a new definition of the term "better connector" in the next 10 years. Stay tuned in our hard work and don't forget to…

> even though they aren't in the letter of law.

> With respect to radio equipment capable of being recharged via wired charging, the Commission is empowered to adopt delegated acts in accordance with Article 44 to amend Part I of Annex Ia in the light of technical progress or market developments, and to ensure the minimum common interoperability between radio equipment and their charging devices, by:

(a) modifying, adding or removing categories or classes of radio equipment;

(b) modifying, adding or removing technical specifications, including references and descriptions, in relation to the charging receptacle(s) and charging communication protocol(s), for each category or class of radio equipment concerned.’

Re: EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

#799

Post by minimaul » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

jacobr1 wrote: post #787

minimaul wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "the regular charging cable" This is the problem I have with this choice. USB-C isn't one cable. It's a big variety of poorly-labelled possible cables, complying with a ton of different standards. USB-C can be just USB2.0 capable, 3.1 Gen1, 3.1 Gen2, Thunderbolt 3 capable, etc. Some cables can carry 3A. Some 5A. When your 'universal' charging cable doesn't provide fast charging, is it because your charger doesn't p…

USB-A had a similar problem (but on a much smaller scale). There also was heterogeneity in build quality. But over time features and quality converged. I think we should expect something similar here.

I didn't have to keep separate sets of visually identical cables for USB-A to do different things - that's already a reality with USB-C -> USB-C cables.

I can tell at a glance if a USB-A cable supports USB3.0 for instance.

I can't tell that for a USB-C -> USB-C cable.

Re: EU Passes Law to Switch iPhone to USB-C by End of 2024

#800

Post by gnicholas » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 5:48 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #745

gnicholas wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fast-Forward to Autumn 2023 or Spring 2024 Since when does Apple introduce new iPhones in the Spring?

iPhone SEs were released in the spring.

Oh good point! But I don't think any new features have ever been released in the Spring — SEs are a different form-factor of existing tech. (I have nothing against them, and my next phone may well be an SE, if the Minis are truly dead).