Failing Intro Economics • Hacker News Board

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#71

Post by beej71 » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

wildrhythms wrote: post #3

I genuinely believe a lot of professors are out of touch, especially around this point: >Fourth, students seemed reluctant to come to the office seeking help. [...] I suspect there is an increased factor of intimidation associated with being lost in the material and asking a much older male professor for help. Let's ignore the weird second half assumption about 'older males' for now... Young people do not have a conc…

In my short time teaching so far, in 2.25 quarters, only one person has used office hours, and that was over zoom. I have 2 fixed office hours per week, and allow zoom office hours by appointment any time.

On the other hand, I help the students async and at odd hours on Discord every single day.

It seems the more a student should be asking for help, the less likely they are to do so. I spend a fair about of time during the quarter trying to break down that wall.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#72

Post by tlear » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 1:55 PM UTC

anoonmoose wrote: post #2

AUTHOR: Socrates (469–399 B.C.) QUOTATION: The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyranni…

This is why going back to Math is always the way. Out of 100 students in Econ 101. How many can read a problem and setup then solve a simple linear system? Forget it how many can solve a linear system

Old professor I had in university would do a Math quiz in the first class, with disclaimer on the paper: If you find this hard save your money and drop out. Just some basic Algebra. Tenure and teaching for 30 years, he genuinely did not give a fuck. Of course lots of people would skip first class due to their O week..

Same epic prof would give exactly same tests year to year with 2-3 number changed around.. then fail everyone who provided answers from a wrong year. You would think people would learn or word would get passed down.. nope.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#73

Post by chiefalchemist » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:04 PM UTC

> Others appeared baffled by the theory, in both microeconomics and macroeconomics; nine students received a grade of “D” or “F.” This performance was perhaps the worst by a group that I have had in 50 years of teaching introductory economics, going back to my first such offering in 1972.

1) Perhaps the univ has dropped its standards? And doesn't make an effort to prep those on the lower end?

2) 50 years? I can't help but wonder how exciting and engaging this course isn't. Perhaps student performance is a reflection of prof performance?

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#74

Post by musingsole » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:05 PM UTC

michaericalribo wrote: post #66

musingsole wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let’s all do whatever the student believe At this point, I'll trust student sentiment over a professor's insistence any day of the week. Professors throw out the word "office hours" like it's self-explanatory. It's not. And unless you're a certain type of person, you just won't know or learn how a professor's office hours could help you. It's not immediately apparent to me (or particularly first generation college…

This is a failure to understand responsibility here. The professor is not responsible for holding your hand and explain every little term—especially terms like “office hours”, which are bog standard at literally every university. This isn’t some arcane obscure term—it’s college classes 101. College is a useful learning experience for this type of responsibility. You say its not “self-explanatory”? Good! This is a gre…

I'd like to agree. When I was a student, I mostly argued the same myself.

However the sheer size of student populations and the complexity of college life have grown exponentially, and they aren't slowing down. With that in mind, this personal responsibility mindset is quaint.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#75

Post by treis » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:06 PM UTC

apwheele wrote: post #20

lotsofpulp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, smarter or more disciplined kids might have realized utility of small less selective private college is not commensurate with costs, so they are opting to go with lower cost government supported schools or focus on getting into more selective schools.

I think this is plausible on the margins, although it could be true that Davidson relative to peers are lower but still overall take the same test they are higher compared to 20 years ago as well (is there some term for people somewhat smarter over time?). Or more specifically `Smart(Davidson Now) That said, as a professor you take kids as they are, not as you wish them to be. I have only taught at state schools, but…

It's not impossible. College admissions 20 years ago was more or less GPA + ACT/SAT. These days it's far more holistic to the point of ACT/SAT not being required at Davidson. Found one article that says only 60% of admitted students submitted an ACT/SAT score.

Can easily see a not so smart kid that checks boxes and had a good high school GPA due to parental supervision totally bombing out in college.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#76

Post by beej71 » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

jcpst wrote: post #68

wildrhythms wrote: post #3

I genuinely believe a lot of professors are out of touch, especially around this point: >Fourth, students seemed reluctant to come to the office seeking help. [...] I suspect there is an increased factor of intimidation associated with being lost in the material and asking a much older male professor for help. Let's ignore the weird second half assumption about 'older males' for now... Young people do not have a conc…

I don’t see what the issue is here. The professor informs the class of office hours where the door is open. I used these times when I needed to ask a quick question or clarify something. In addition to email. The idea that these young adults should be treated so sensitively is pretty weird to me. Yes, it can be uncomfortable. Transitioning from childhood to adulthood is full of uncomfortable times.

This quarter I've tried to frame their role (to them) as professional students with their task simply to learn the material using all available resources, including the instructor. I try to stress that they are in charge of how much they learn, not me. (And this isn't me trying to get out of work--I'm still working my ass off.)

We're on the third week now, and I'll reiterate it today.

We'll see if it makes any difference.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#77

Post by jterrys » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

HEmanZ wrote: post #50

My response to everyone saying this must be the professor’s fault: I graduated right before the pandemic, so I don’t know how things changed during the last two years, but I do know that US college students at mid-tier universities are very bad at learning. If I saw a professor at my university take the time to think this hard about why students are failing so badly, then I would trust his performance over the studen…

College is a few years behind me, but not too far that I've forgotten my general experience.

As a graduate from a mid-tier university in the US:

-Nobody has ever given a shit about Intro to Econ. Practically every single Freshman is forced to take it so everyone bemoans the experience.

-Most schools allow you to take a Community College version of the course and transfer over credits saving you time and money (and effort depending on the school).

-In the "Hierarchy of Course Priorities", Intro to Econ is barely above Anthropology and soft sciences. I.e nobody gives a shit. Nobody has ever given a shit. And nobody wants to read through 20 pages of supply and demand and hear about a dude named Keynes because nobody thinks they're going to be an Economist or care or think its important. (Of course they're detrimentally wrong, but we're not here to criticize them, just see things from their perspective)

-Mid tier universities can have a mix of really good and really bad professors. So while he's pouring out his heart and soul, his faculty colleagues might be giving even less of a shit than his students. Degrading overall morale and willingness to learn. Especially when its entirely possible now to coast through a class online, do a few multiple choice exams, and move on with your life.

-Finally, Freshman classes as a whole filter out students who have poor studying discipline, so the likelihood of encountering failing students will be higher than average.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#78

Post by scruple » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

fny wrote: post #16

This point is really bizarre: > The expectations at the college or university level seem to be falling. In other words, the AP course has actually adapted more to changing and challenging economic conditions, particularly macroeconomic ones, than has the more stagnant college-level course. How is it that a college has more stagnant material than a curriculum designed by a bureaucracy? This sounds like a Davidson prob…

Because the students taking an AP course are motivated to move beyond the 101 level before they even have the opportunity to take the 101 level course. 101 level courses are for people who can't otherwise move passed it through other means.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#79

Post by sokoloff » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 3:31 PM UTC

capnrefsmmat wrote: post #15

wildrhythms wrote: post #3

I genuinely believe a lot of professors are out of touch, especially around this point: >Fourth, students seemed reluctant to come to the office seeking help. [...] I suspect there is an increased factor of intimidation associated with being lost in the material and asking a much older male professor for help. Let's ignore the weird second half assumption about 'older males' for now... Young people do not have a conc…

> I wonder how many times a student has taken time out of their day to trek across campus to the professor's office only to find the professor away, or head-down busy grading papers, or just about to leave? Typically, professors announce office hours during which they will be available to answer questions, so this is not an issue. From a professor's perspective, online options for tutoring students are vastly inferio…

Perhaps pandering (at least excessively pandering) to people being only willing to use anonymous channels isn’t doing them any life-long favors.

I have my own “don’t feel like dealing with this mildly unpleasant task” hang-ups. I’d likely be more successful and happier if I spent more time overcoming them (to include being forced to).

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#80

Post by sokoloff » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 3:35 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #40

chiefalchemist wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Typically, professors announce office hours during which they will be available to answer questions, so this is not an issue. True. Also true, students have other classes. To students raised in an async on demand world the concept of static office hours is fairly foreign. Certainly not top of mind.

Office hours are a compromise. A professor can provide you with individualized help but in a timeboxed manner. One class is no more than something like 20% of a professor's time, either because they are spending most of their time on research or because they are teaching a huge pile of courses as an adjunct. Having professors sit on slack all day ready to respond to asynchronous questions from students is simply not…

Isn’t the “a” the entire point of asynchronous communications? (That no one has to sit around all day to respond to them, as the medium is fundamentally async. If a few back-n-forths suggest that escalating to a synchronous medium is needed, that can still happen, but I’d bet well over 50% of initial contacts could be handled effectively totally async.)