Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society • Hacker News Board

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#151

Post by rightbyte » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:33 AM UTC

pas wrote: post #141

gnull wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The telos of a knife is to cut, the telos of medicine is to heal, and the telos of a university is truth."

That sounds nice, but the de facto the purpose of a university is the furtherance of the intellectuals. The scientific method's purpose is to get closer to the truth. Some research does happen at universities, but academia in its current state is far from the ideal vessel for that. (Especially when it comes to softer sciences.)

Whether the purpose of a bakery is to make bread or make money.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#152

Post by collegeburner » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:34 AM UTC

trention wrote: post #134

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the Motte and Bailey technique. Attacking "Political Correctness" in a vague and non-specific way lets you sound noble. As soon as you specify what that means in practice you just sound like a nasty bully (at best), so best leave that implied. But a quick glance as the history of social science that these things are a direct response to, would reveal people "proving" that various groups are inferior in ways t…

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does it rly change anything? like, take sports. asians have some structural advantages (endomorphism and limb to body ratio) for lifting, west africans at mnay explosive/power sports (fast twitch muscle concentration, arms/legs to body), east africans at long-distance running etc. (lighter structure, efficient muscles over long term), whites at swimming (shoulder structure & torso length).

should we stop large swathes of research into athletic performance? bc i guess it doesn't provide sufficiently "antiracist" outcomes?

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#153

Post by coffeeblack » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:34 AM UTC

trention wrote: post #100

I am extremely glad I live in a country in continental Europe where this shit is unconstitutional and will be stricken down by the courts immediately (as will be any sort of preferential treatment of any minority in hiring or admissions). Hope it stays that way.

In less that two years, this will be common over here as well.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#154

Post by pas » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:37 AM UTC

Manuel_D wrote: post #24

rnk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> He quit that group because he can't sign a statement that he is anti-racist, and supports diversity and inclusion? Incorrect, this statement was not directed to members' conduct. The diversity statement was to pledge that members' research submissions are advancing anti-racism, equity, and inclusion. This would, for example, prohibit a psychologist studying something like memory retention. This has no reasonable li…

> prohibit a psychologist studying something like memory retention

wat? how? why?

real social justice doesn't work that way. (contrary, it needs to know deficiencies so it can help those who are in need, so people have equal opportunities for self-actualization.)

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#155

Post by concordDance » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:39 AM UTC

yathaid wrote: post #112

"Now that many university presidents have agreed to implement many of the demands, I believe that the conflict between truth and social justice is likely to become unmanageable." Can someone ELI5 what is this conflict between truth and social justice Haidt refers to?

Basically if your research is considered bad for the dominant DEI narratives you're going to be in for a bad time.

E.g. if your research gets the "wrong" results regarding police shootings then anyone who defends your research will have to resign: https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2020/06/resignation.html?m=1

And anything regarding differences in crime numbers or IQ? Forget it.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#156

Post by collegeburner » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:39 AM UTC

pm3003 wrote: post #125

trention wrote: post #100

I am extremely glad I live in a country in continental Europe where this shit is unconstitutional and will be stricken down by the courts immediately (as will be any sort of preferential treatment of any minority in hiring or admissions). Hope it stays that way.

There aren't a lot of fully private academic education institutions in Europe, compared to the US. But I wonder if they could do that sort of thing based of their existing limitations for academic freedom. If an institution funded by Volkswagen wants the professors to work on car related stuff to advance technological goals, couldn't they also require them to work towards social or political goals?

autonomy of "private" institutions partially died with the mechanism of tying title ix compliance to any federal dollars. i think there are 2 colleges in America that take 0 federal aid (pell grants etc.) so don't have to comply.

tbh i always found it contradictory we don't use those federal $ to require compliance with all constitutional rights, e.g. 1 and 2a.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#157

Post by ZeroGravitas » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:41 AM UTC

collegeburner wrote: post #152

trention wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

does it rly change anything? like, take sports. asians have some structural advantages (endomorphism and limb to body ratio) for lifting, west africans at mnay explosive/power sports (fast twitch muscle concentration, arms/legs to body), east africans at long-distance running etc. (lighter structure, efficient muscles over long term), whites at swimming (shoulder structure & torso length). should we stop large swathe…

Studies that show the genetic diversity of the continent of Africa are in fact "anti-racist".

They truthfully reveal that the psuedoscientific 19th century ideas we refer to as race had no scientific basis. Some people really haven't taken this "truth" well though.

They still try to fit every new fact into their old model.

Like "West African Scorpios" are much more open to emotion, while "East African Scorpios" are open to new experience. So should we stop all research into Astrology?

Yes, because it's psuedoscientific nonsense that only distracts from the actual truth.

This current controversy includes the attempts to stop exactly this, with rules saying if you do medical research, and classify people by "race" then you need to explain who made this classification and why. Because a Brazilian looking a photos might put people into different races than an American or Japanese researcher, which might differ from the subjects chosen race, which definately differs from their genetic race, because genetic races don't exist.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#158

Post by mpweiher » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:43 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #142

yathaid wrote: post #112

"Now that many university presidents have agreed to implement many of the demands, I believe that the conflict between truth and social justice is likely to become unmanageable." Can someone ELI5 what is this conflict between truth and social justice Haidt refers to?

Social justice advocates oppose publishing academic research that opposes their (“social justice”) goals. It’s Galileo all over again.

It's actually even worse. It is enough for research to not actively promote "social justice" (which is of course anything but social or just) to get the boot.

So everything must be politicised. "How does your new caching algorithm promote social justice?". (If the same criteria were applied in CS).

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#159

Post by roenxi » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:43 AM UTC

It is good to go to the sources - but the obvious source I found appears to be [0] a recursive link so that isn't too helpful. Throwing babies out with the bathwater is bad and doing studies with diverse participants seems like a good idea. The statement can say "this research doesn't further the SPSP's goals" So I don't see why the statement itself would be objectionable.

The objection would be if the statement is used as a tool to discriminate against good research. So this resignation should probably be treated as a vote of no confidence in the people and goals of the specific institution. I can see why the sort of people who would demand this statement would be a problem as ironically the DIE crowd seems to sometimes attract a weird sort of modern racist. Something that is always a risk when developing a race-obsessed ideology.

[0] https://spsp.org/events/demonstrating-our-commitment-anti-ra... - the "We requested the submitters to please explain whether and how this submission advances the equity, inclusion, and anti-racism goals of SPSP" link leads to the same page for me.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#160

Post by concordDance » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:43 AM UTC

rnk wrote: post #3

armagon wrote: post #2

I applaud Mr. Haidt for standing up for what he believes in.

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Did you know that forcing schools to hire teachers and principals that better reflect the demographics of the school worsens the outcomes of black students in those schools?