Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society • Hacker News Board

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#121

Post by BlargMcLarg » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 8:35 AM UTC

stjohnswarts wrote: post #110

trention wrote: post #100

I am extremely glad I live in a country in continental Europe where this shit is unconstitutional and will be stricken down by the courts immediately (as will be any sort of preferential treatment of any minority in hiring or admissions). Hope it stays that way.

I think there is a burgeoning push back on quotas and such as well. I think the woke crowd pushed their luck a bit too hard. This is coming from a very progressive person (me) but who also feels egalitarianism and personal responsibility should always be the goal and not an afterthought.

I'm not getting that impression. For what it's worth, "woke left" has always been a minority, yet it hasn't lost momentum as much as it continually rotates in direction. Specifically, we're seeing more and more non-NA countries adopt these rhetorics from both the US and CA.

Politics is becoming more and more extremist too, with the extreme left lashing out and calling anyone who even questions the status quo an extreme rightist bigot, and the extreme right doing the equivalent. And the two are fueled by both one another, as well as increasing tensions due to national issues.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#122

Post by xg15 » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 8:35 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #6

rnk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Don’t believe the propaganda. “Anti-racism” is actually about racism against Asians. “Equity” is actually about lowering the standards and destroying meritocracy. “Inclusion” is actually about excluding people that have different political or moral opinions (e.g. that don’t want to be racist against Asians or that support meritocracy).

> “Equity” is actually about lowering the standards and destroying meritocracy.

The "meritocracy" that includes your rich parents into your "merit".

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#123

Post by ZeroGravitas » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 8:45 AM UTC

yathaid wrote: post #112

"Now that many university presidents have agreed to implement many of the demands, I believe that the conflict between truth and social justice is likely to become unmanageable." Can someone ELI5 what is this conflict between truth and social justice Haidt refers to?

This is the Motte and Bailey technique.

Attacking "Political Correctness" in a vague and non-specific way lets you sound noble.

As soon as you specify what that means in practice you just sound like a nasty bully (at best), so best leave that implied.

But a quick glance as the history of social science that these things are a direct response to, would reveal people "proving" that various groups are inferior in ways that mirror contemporary prejudices and reinforce right-wing politics that consistently builds hierarchical models to justify current social inequalities.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#124

Post by mellosouls » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 8:51 AM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #123

yathaid wrote: post #112

"Now that many university presidents have agreed to implement many of the demands, I believe that the conflict between truth and social justice is likely to become unmanageable." Can someone ELI5 what is this conflict between truth and social justice Haidt refers to?

This is the Motte and Bailey technique. Attacking "Political Correctness" in a vague and non-specific way lets you sound noble. As soon as you specify what that means in practice you just sound like a nasty bully (at best), so best leave that implied. But a quick glance as the history of social science that these things are a direct response to, would reveal people "proving" that various groups are inferior in ways t…

Your insults against people like Haidt for taking a stand against ideological bullying demonstrate exactly why such stands are needed.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#125

Post by pm3003 » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 8:53 AM UTC

trention wrote: post #100

I am extremely glad I live in a country in continental Europe where this shit is unconstitutional and will be stricken down by the courts immediately (as will be any sort of preferential treatment of any minority in hiring or admissions). Hope it stays that way.

There aren't a lot of fully private academic education institutions in Europe, compared to the US.

But I wonder if they could do that sort of thing based of their existing limitations for academic freedom. If an institution funded by Volkswagen wants the professors to work on car related stuff to advance technological goals, couldn't they also require them to work towards social or political goals?

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#126

Post by faeriechangling » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 8:56 AM UTC

rnk wrote: post #3

armagon wrote: post #2

I applaud Mr. Haidt for standing up for what he believes in.

Quoted post unavailable.

"Antiracists" is literally, as explained in the article, are a political group that prescribes racial discrimination against white people. They're a very ironically named group of people considering. If your research is not specifically engineered to justify racial discrimination against a group of people you may be subject to a number of administrative consequences.

Regarding your experiences in the American South, all I can say is two wrongs don't make a right. This is hardly about including more voices, this is about opposing a policy that prescibes the acceptable Overton window of research, it's clearly about limiting the acceptable range of discourse.

We are literally maybe a quarter of a century towards whites becoming a plurality, and not much longer after that until they become an actual minority. You can't just think about the past, think about the future, making publishing scientific racism an ideological goal because a group is politically powerful NOW when they won't be in the future is bound to have unintended consequences.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#127

Post by busterarm » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 8:59 AM UTC

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #116

yathaid wrote: post #112

"Now that many university presidents have agreed to implement many of the demands, I believe that the conflict between truth and social justice is likely to become unmanageable." Can someone ELI5 what is this conflict between truth and social justice Haidt refers to?

Basically, social justice is pushing its goals under a narrative which may not be true. It is merely assumed it is.

It goes a little bit beyond this. You're supposed to do research with an open mind and allow your conclusions to reveal themselves through the course of study. Swearing that your research advances the goals of anti-racism and equity means that your research can only have pre-formed conclusions.

It completely taints your research and any results you might come to.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#128

Post by JohnHaugeland » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:00 AM UTC

mellosouls wrote: post #124

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the Motte and Bailey technique. Attacking "Political Correctness" in a vague and non-specific way lets you sound noble. As soon as you specify what that means in practice you just sound like a nasty bully (at best), so best leave that implied. But a quick glance as the history of social science that these things are a direct response to, would reveal people "proving" that various groups are inferior in ways t…

Your insults against people like Haidt for taking a stand against ideological bullying demonstrate exactly why such stands are needed.

No post body was provided.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#129

Post by JohnHaugeland » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:03 AM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #9

rnk wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> newly adopted requirement that everybody presenting research at the group's conferences explain how their submission advances "equity, inclusion, and anti-racism goals." Diversity is fine. But every single piece of research has to be related to diversity? Is it not possible to do research on anything else that maybe doesn’t have anything to do with identity issues? This is not a statement about promoting diversity,…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#130

Post by mellosouls » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:04 AM UTC

JohnHaugeland wrote: post #128

mellosouls wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your insults against people like Haidt for taking a stand against ideological bullying demonstrate exactly why such stands are needed.

Quoted post unavailable.

I think this is the quote you mean, which sounds very very different to yours?

a newly adopted requirement that everybody presenting research at the group's conferences explain how their submission advances "equity, inclusion, and anti-racism goals."