Live data from Hacker News

The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

liam-on-linux.dreamwidth.org

71–80 of 85 posts

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#71
post #62
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IBM itself or a 3rd party? Because the last IBM 8086 PC, AFAIK, was the PS/2 Model 30 and it didn't ship with VGA. It's an important difference.

The IBM PS/2 Display Adapter was a confusingly named 8-bit ISA VGA adapter. The PS/2 in the name referred to the fact that it allowed your prior generation machines to run the same graphics system as the PS/2 line.

(!)

https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/cpu/item/1014-ibm-ps2-d...

How about that. TIL. Thank you.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#72
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit of history, I had to search a while for: "The designers of the 80286 based it on the Multics segmentation model, but in reality segmentation makes it really hard to implement, because of internal memory fragmentation. A while back I wrote blog post about how an alternative 80286 with segment registers pointing to 256 byte paragraphs giving a true 24-bit virtual address which was then paged into a 24-bit…

Segmentation is harder to work with, but it has benefits too. At the time, when it was all new, everyone just complained about it: they wanted the ease of use of flat, unsegmented memory, with just one memory address. More recently, the NX bit has become desirable and promoted. The CPU can flag areas of RAM as data, and mark them as N on e X ecutable. That is all: one bit, so either it is code and you can run it, or…

Excellent concise summary, glad you and ForOldHack beat me to it. I would have confined my reply to the ring issue having forgotten much of the controversy with other OSes—Netware for instance (even though I'd used it many times).

You're right about segmentation being hard work, I can recall cursing Intel at the time and hoping it would bring out a more eloquent processor that was easier to use such as Moto's 68000. However, there wasn't any thought of moving over to Moto because of existing investment in Intel's development systems-Multibus, and in the 8085 and 8051, they were still current and we were still using them.

"It's a huge waste of human effort:"

Absolutely, if I could have that time over I reckon I'd opt for a different profession. Everyone from manufacturers to end users wasted a huge amount of time and energy that resulted from stupid mistakes to outright shenanigans. We saw it all happen from a developer/end user's perspective and we weren't immune either (also it ended up costing everyone unnecessary money).

For me, the most bitter arguments were over the change from IBM to Microsoft which also included the shift from OS/2 to Windows. Technical arguments became irrelevant after senior management read press reports that Microsoft was the new 'in fashion' company when it came to computing. I recall saying to management "why waste all the expense on an engineering outfit when you can simply find solutions in the finance section of the newspaper". That didn't win me any Brownie points.

Why so many in computing and tech became so besotted with Gates and Microsoft and why more level heads never prevailed at the time has always troubled me. For instance, when Gates was quoted as saying "640K ought to be enough for anyone" I recall saying to colleagues who agreed with me "either Gates is daft or he's been forced to read from a PR release". Whilst there's now doubt that he ever said those words there was never any outright denial at the time. Similarly, the technical press never went out of its way to say how stupid the notion was. Being obviously silly or at best ill considered then why didn't the press say so? There's shades of 'the emperor's new clothes' here, methinks—and that's troubling.

I'm of the opinion that long after all protagonists of that era are dead and buried that researchers will tally up the actual cost of that wasted human effort and we'll find that whilst Microsoft wasn't completely responsible it nevertheless played an overly dominant role. The same applies with Windows and MS's deviations from the original CUA (which are still ongoing). Just think of the millions of hours lost worldwide by users having to relearn and futz with the UI whenever MS changes it. If dollar figures were put on this wasted human effort then they'd have to be staggering.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#73
post #39
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm typing through a dual ps/2 mouse and keyboard to USB adaptor. Mouse side is empty and keyboard side has a gc56mf to ps/2 adaptor on it. Because my keyboard is from the 80s.

Depends which keyboard I use, but sometimes, same here. My main work PC has a 1991 Model M on it. Best PC keyboard ever made, and I have about 5 of them, carefully kept since people were throwing them away in the 1990s. I remap Caps Lock to Super, and I'm good to go. I really don't need media-control keys or anything, or a right Super key. I am trialling an early model of Das Keyboard on my Mac. The volume-control di…

On windows ctrl+esc is the same as the super key.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#74
post #70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it wasn't, it had the MCA architecture for the motherboards, which was out of reach to the clone makers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture > It was thought that by creating a new standard, IBM would regain control of standards via the required licensing. As patents can take three years or more to be granted, however, only those relating to ISA could be licensed when Micro Channel was announc…

I was there. I installed hundreds of the things. I still own 2 of them. The term "PC compatible" is about software, not hardware. It's not about slots. For instance, laptops were and are still PC compatibles and 99% of laptops have no expansion slots. The PS/2 range ran bog-standard unmodified PC DOS and MS-DOS, and unmodified DR Concurrent DOS. It ran plain unmodified standard Windows 2, 3 and 3.1. I put it on them.…

I stand corrected than.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#75
post #19

What I remember most about the PS/2 is the crazy power switch that internally connected to a metal rod that connected to another switch on the PSU itself.

I've never seen a metal rod, but a long plastic arm that goes all the way through the case is common on many types of electronics.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#76
post #51
post #9

>72pin simm in 1988 Afaik other companies picked up 32bit simms very slowly. SUN in 1991 in SPARCstation IPX. First x86 support showing up in 1992 on 486 boards just before introduction of VLB slots. Apple was year later with LC III/520 and Centris in 1993.

Sure, yes, because the purpose of 72-pin SIMMs was for 32-bit wide memory access. Before 72-pin SIMMs were 30-pin SIMMs. Simple arithmetic shows you that you can't route a 32-bit memory bus over 30 pins. You need banks of SIMMs and that means they need to be matched. But the 386DX was too expensive, because it needed a 32-bit memory bus. So it didn't sell well and was mainly used in PCs used as servers. PC servers di…

68020 and 68030 were fully 32 bit, wasn't it? They had the dynamic sizing thing so they could boot of one EPROM, but they had the full bus expose AFAIK.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#77
post #45

The wording of the need for the '286 isn't quite right. Windows 3.0 supported the 286 too, but also had support for the 386's protected mode. Related fact, Windows/386 2.0 supported protected mode[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_2.0x

I wrote the comment and the blog post. What wording are you referring to? Yes, Windows supported the 286 too. There was a special Windows 2 version for 286s, and a different edition for 386s; what was novel in Windows 3.0 is that one edition and one install on disk supported all three: 8086, 80286, and 80386, all in one. Windows 3.0 had 3 modes: - if it had - if it had 2MB of RAM and a 286, it started in Standard Mod…

I read about the multitasking of DOS programs in some round-up of DOS multitasking systems (DeskView et al.), and convinced my boss to fund experimentally adding 4 MiB of RAM and a Windows 3.0 license to my 386-based clone. I got a build (cross-assemble) of my code going, and then entered the Brief editor, and pondered what exactly I had enabled. Then an in-house utility was invoked from the makefile to download my code into the target, and my whole system froze. Thus endeth the experiment.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#78
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Segmentation is harder to work with, but it has benefits too. At the time, when it was all new, everyone just complained about it: they wanted the ease of use of flat, unsegmented memory, with just one memory address. More recently, the NX bit has become desirable and promoted. The CPU can flag areas of RAM as data, and mark them as N on e X ecutable. That is all: one bit, so either it is code and you can run it, or…

Excellent concise summary, glad you and ForOldHack beat me to it. I would have confined my reply to the ring issue having forgotten much of the controversy with other OSes—Netware for instance (even though I'd used it many times). You're right about segmentation being hard work, I can recall cursing Intel at the time and hoping it would bring out a more eloquent processor that was easier to use such as Moto's 68000.…

I find it difficult to think of a context in which Gates would say that 640kB was enough, given that the limitation came from the IBM PC. MS/DOS could quite happily address 768kB on an RM Nimbus, for instance. The more fundamental 1MB limit came from Intel. Gates didn't have to justify either.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#79
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A HN poster questioned the existence of 80286 computers with VGA displays. Young uns... I personally had a 286 with VGA back then...

Me too. And a Sound Blaster.

I played Secret of Monkey Island for the first time on a 286 VGA with a Sound Blaster...

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#80
post #74
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was there. I installed hundreds of the things. I still own 2 of them. The term "PC compatible" is about software, not hardware. It's not about slots. For instance, laptops were and are still PC compatibles and 99% of laptops have no expansion slots. The PS/2 range ran bog-standard unmodified PC DOS and MS-DOS, and unmodified DR Concurrent DOS. It ran plain unmodified standard Windows 2, 3 and 3.1. I put it on them.…

I stand corrected than.

Thank you for that. :-)
Post reply on HN