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The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

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Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on the explanation as to why Intel said they designed the 286 as they did?

This is a bit of history, I had to search a while for: "The designers of the 80286 based it on the Multics segmentation model, but in reality segmentation makes it really hard to implement, because of internal memory fragmentation. A while back I wrote blog post about how an alternative 80286 with segment registers pointing to 256 byte paragraphs giving a true 24-bit virtual address which was then paged into a 24-bit…

Brilliant! Thanks so much.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#42
post #31
post #28

A HN poster questioned the existence of 80286 computers with VGA displays. And then there were a bunch of Amstrad PCs with 8086 and VGA: https://www.seasip.info/AmstradXT/models.html#pc2086 https://www.seasip.info/AmstradXT/models.html#pc3086 https://www.seasip.info/AmstradXT/models.html#pc5086

> A HN poster questioned the existence of 80286 computers with VGA displays. Young uns... I personally had a 286 with VGA back then...

Me too. And a Sound Blaster.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought OS/2 Warp was really neat. I worked IT at Bloomingdale's and at the time they were a strictly IBM house. They used IBM computers running OS/2 Warp in their Bridal Registry kiosks. Since this was a kiosk they had touchscreens and they worked very well and had a "sparkle" in the screen, as the early touchscreen CRT's did. If you lost power, or shut them down incorrectly you would get a bunch of DLL errors and…

re-image? did that exist then?

Yes. Especially if you were putting an image back to a harddrive of the exact same size and specification, it was very doable. You could keep an untouched hard drive with a known install and copy it block for block.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#45

The wording of the need for the '286 isn't quite right. Windows 3.0 supported the 286 too, but also had support for the 386's protected mode. Related fact, Windows/386 2.0 supported protected mode[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_2.0x

I wrote the comment and the blog post. What wording are you referring to?

Yes, Windows supported the 286 too. There was a special Windows 2 version for 286s, and a different edition for 386s; what was novel in Windows 3.0 is that one edition and one install on disk supported all three: 8086, 80286, and 80386, all in one. Windows 3.0 had 3 modes:

- if it had - if it had 2MB of RAM and a 286, it started in Standard Mode. No 386 features enabled.

- if it had >=2MB of RAM and a 386, it started in 386 Enhanced Mode.

https://komh.github.io/os2books/gg243731/214_L3_386EnhancedM...

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20130208-00/?p=53...

I have written about this, too: https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/78006.html

It wasn't well-known even then, but Windows 2 and 3 could multitask DOS apps without a 386. V86 mode wasn't needed for the multitasking, but for the memory management. The multitasking worked, the problem was trying to fit several DOS apps into the base 1MB of RAM for them to multitask.

What the 386 delivered was separate 640kB slots for each DOS VM.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#46
post #19

What I remember most about the PS/2 is the crazy power switch that internally connected to a metal rod that connected to another switch on the PSU itself.

Ah, the magic way your computer actually uses 0 power when off. Maybe we should go back to those. Imagine how much energy could be saved in the world.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#47
post #28

A HN poster questioned the existence of 80286 computers with VGA displays. And then there were a bunch of Amstrad PCs with 8086 and VGA: https://www.seasip.info/AmstradXT/models.html#pc2086 https://www.seasip.info/AmstradXT/models.html#pc3086 https://www.seasip.info/AmstradXT/models.html#pc5086

When my IBM PC 5150's CGA monitor lost its vertical sync (and I was on a BBS and vibrated my lips so I could read the text to logout properly ... really!) I got a Cardinal VGA card for the 8-bit bus.

So yeah, VGA was possible all the way back to the original.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on the explanation as to why Intel said they designed the 286 as they did?

This is a bit of history, I had to search a while for: "The designers of the 80286 based it on the Multics segmentation model, but in reality segmentation makes it really hard to implement, because of internal memory fragmentation. A while back I wrote blog post about how an alternative 80286 with segment registers pointing to 256 byte paragraphs giving a true 24-bit virtual address which was then paged into a 24-bit…

Segmentation is harder to work with, but it has benefits too. At the time, when it was all new, everyone just complained about it: they wanted the ease of use of flat, unsegmented memory, with just one memory address.

More recently, the NX bit has become desirable and promoted. The CPU can flag areas of RAM as data, and mark them as Non eXecutable. That is all: one bit, so either it is code and you can run it, or it's data and you can't.

But the original Intel 386 design had 4 protection rings: 0, 1, 2 and 3.

0: kernel mode, can do anything. 1: inner ring, privileged code, but with restrictions. 2: outer ring, some hardware privileges: can do device I/O. 3: user mode code, no hardware access privileges, has to request everything through the kernel.

OS/2 2+ used the middle rings, and Novell Netware 4.x, optionally, for NLMs (apps that ran on the server, which was rare for Netware). Nothing much else.

Microsoft only ever used 0 and 3.

But with memory segments, you could, in theory, flag each segment by ring. This is much more flexible and controllable than just one NX bit.

I've written about this: https://www.theregister.com/Print/2011/07/11/a_brief_history...

Segmentation had benefits, but they took more work, more effort and thought and planning. You needed to design the OS for it, and the drivers, and the apps.

But remember how DOS evolved: it's a clone of CP/M. No multitasking, no permissions, only 1 app in memory at a time.

Back in the 1980s, the industry was growing by adding stuff onto a brain-dead, super-simple design from the 1970s.

They saw segments as a hindrance, an unnecessary complexity. They wanted them to go away.

In the 1990s, we got 32-bit desktop personal computers and 32-bit end-user desktop OSes. Apple's design was a single-tasking OS and it had to buy a Unix vendor to make a grown up OS.

Microsoft's engineers achieved miracles bolted on to DOS, but in the end, it had to ditch its entire OS too, and build a whole new one: Windows NT. It took headhunted talent to make it work.

IBM dropped the ball, which is the whole point of my blog post that is the root of this discussion.

Now, we have CHERI, building protection segments back in again. I've written about that too:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/26/cheri_computer_runs_k...

It's a huge waste of human effort: we had them in the 1980s, but they were too hard and we threw them away.

UNIX did too. Multics used them, but Multics was too hard. UNIX was Multics with the hard bits left out. And now, 50 years later, we're discovering that we needed them all along and we're painfully and with great difficulty putting them back in again.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#49

Also the PS/2 keyboard and mouse connectors. Before that mice were speaking to serial ports or required an add in card with a nonstandard port. the people buying PS/2's were often very concerned with mice, they'd seen them on TV and they wanted one.

The Logitech mouse for the Olivetti M24/AT&T 6300 plugged into the keyboard.

Re: The pivotal importance of IBM's PS/2 range on computers, even today

#50

It didn't originate with the PS/2 line, but the Model M keyboard with Selectric roots was standard equipment, an absolute beast, and the best keyboard I've ever had.

It's funny. The Model M was a way to make a cheaper keyboard than its predecessor, the Model F, which, in turn, was IBM's way to make a cheaper, lighter alternative to the beam-spring keyboards they were using in terminals and other "more serious" computers.
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