Live data from Hacker News

The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

m.motherjones.com

151–156 of 156 posts

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#151
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with your fundamental point, but I think you misunderstand how things become classified. It's always either a) due to how the information was collected b) something derived (citing) a piece of classified information. So a special collection platform may collect material at some high level of classification, anything that references that information (it could be 100,000 reports) are also all classifie…

It's not politicians certainly, but it's often unaccountable bureaucrats stamping something classified for questionable reasons. The conventional wisdom is that nobody ever got fired for classifying data, and the administration may classify a lot of information that is simply embarrassing. The Intellligence Squared US podcast did a nice job of covering both sides of this issue in their June 8th, 2011 podcast on freed…

You actually can't handle classified data, or derive something from classified data, that doesn't automatically classify the derived work (a report, or some such) at at least the same level. To not do that risks releasing the information and you can actually end up in prison over it, or at the very least lose your job.

So in 99% of the cases it's not like you make a decision to "classify" something. It is by its nature classified.

Think of it this way. You have a friend that tells you via email a secret. This secret can only be known between you and your friend. For example, you are arranging a surprise party for a third friend.

Using this knowledge it is your job to get a birthday cake that has the person's name and age (and a decoration) on it. But the only baker in town is also friends with the birthday friend. You don't want to risk the baker leaking the surprise of the cake to your friend. So you decide to buy a blank cake, and decorate it yourself.

This cake is also classified at the same level of the original information (Classified//only between you and your friend). Because it is derived from the knowledge of the birthday party email).

Now your friend prints off decorations with some party specific information, say a sign or some streamers or something. Those are also classified at the same level.

Suppose there are some other odds and ends that are a result of this email and the party plans. Say a "making of video" for the party etc.

Now let's say you also hire a clown for the party. You only provide the clown the time and place to come and perform, not any other details. Because the clown isn't in on the original secret, the arrangements for the clown and the various transaction documents pertaining to it are at a lower classification level. You might still not want the birthday friend to know that somebody he knows hired a clown on his birthday (a convenient coincidence) so you swear the clown to secrecy.

Even if it gets out and the birthday friend asks the clown directly, the clown has plausible dependability and doesn't know why he was hired, only that he was. So it's not good that your friend finds out, but it doesn't entirely screw up the surprise.

I'm stretching the analogy a bit, but hopefully that makes it clear how knowledge of single piece of information (the email that established the surprise party) can end up producing so many classified documents and how that process happens.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#152
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, my out-of-the-ass estimate is probably very conservative. It's probably an even lower ratio in reality, 1:10, 1:15 maybe?

You guys aren't presenting real evidence, just making up numbers. 1:10 is absolutely ridiculous. If there are 4.2 million now (according to the Daily Mail article cited elsewhere), that's 1.36 percent. You're never going to get that to 10 percent, expecially since (as the DM article says) the currently high number is due to recent expansion of the number of people who have clearances (so you can't argue about tons of…

Why not? Provide your own numbers as an estimate.

You can get a clearance at 18, and people live into their 70s and 80s pretty regularly. The 4.2 million with a clearance are not the same ones that had a clearance 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 etc. years ago.

We had a draft until the early 70s. Tens of Millions of people have been through the military system, and this doesn't even count civilian types, contractors, cleaning people, building facility people, secretaries, etc.

The Vietnam war saw about 9 million people in the military for example.

There's about 25 million vets in the U.S. right now.

It's pretty simple math to arrive at number well above the current number. Remember, just because you aren't in the club, doesn't mean it isn't big.

Let's look at what 10% means. There are ~300 million people in the U.S. 10% of that number is 30 million. Let's say that every single man and woman who is currently in the military or has previous served has a clearance (with no overlap). There are about 3 million active and reserve people right now in the military.

25 + 3 = 28 million. Now let's add in non-military government civilians with clearances, the CIA for example is a civilian agency with an estimated 20,000 people, DIA, 16,500, DTRA, 2,000, DOE: ~110,000, NGA 16,000, NRO, 3,000, NSA 20,000 (civilians only, 38,000 total), DHS, 216,000, DOJ, ~112,000, State, ~50,000, etc.

I'm not even including treasury. And we're up to almost 29 million people.

Now how many contractors do you think have Secret clearances?

Lockheed Martin employes over 100,000 people, Northrup Grumman, 120,000, General Dynamics, 91,200, SAIC, 46,000 etc. etc. etc.

And we rapidly go past 1:10.

Now obviously not every single person I've listed has (or has had) a Secret clearance. But until you start shaving off huge percentages out of each organization you're still between 1:10 and 1:15.

If you disagree with these numbers, the onus is on your to provide better ones.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#153
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All fair questions (I don't know why the down votes for you)! "You said that there is no level strictly above Top Secret (just comparmentalizations within that). Is there any actual evidence for that? (I mean, non-classified evidence; I'm not asking you for classified information.)" There are no levels strictly above Top Secret. At least as far as the military is concerned. SAP programs and compartmentalizations prov…

I'm sorry, I appreciate the information, but you're not actually giving evidence for your claims about TS being the highest. Same thing for the ratio of people in the military (except for the Daily Mail citation, which is quite helpful). I mean, Army grunts are not required to have clearances [1], for example, so you can't just say "assume everyone in the military has a clearance..." [1] This may be a misunderstandin…

I'm assuming you aren't actually asking me to prove a negative. If a reading of NISPOM doesn't clarify it for you, then there's really nothing more I can say that will persuade you from your conspiracy theory.

http://www.dss.mil/isp/fac_clear/download_nispom.html

Army Grunts are required to have a clearance. General Infantry (18yo cannon fodder in your parlance) must have at least a Secret clearance. Army Cooks, may even be required to be cleared.

Think you can run around with 5th generation night vision goggles and state of the art body armor, talk on encrypted radio equipment, know troop movement information, chase after specific enemies and report back on activities on Secret level systems without a clearance? Think again.

Let's do a thought experiment. Let's say we can say there's a piece of information that is so dangerous, so important, that releasing that information could endanger the entire population of the planet. Say, the nuclear codes.

These are arguably the most sensitive information in the world. Why would there need to be a classification level above and beyond TS and the appropriate compartments and or SAP program to protect them? Some sort of Super Top Secret?

Or for fun, let's say Area-51 has alien tech there, or we have a secret military base on the moon, or a Stargate. Why wouldn't it just be protected under a SAP? A Super Top Secret doesn't buy you anything at all in terms of protecting that information. Nor does a Super Duper Top Secret. As somebody not in the SAP and not with a need to know, I wouldn't even know the SAP exists to protect the Stargate program, or the alien autopsy videos, or whatever. Only the people in the SAP and a handful of people managing the SAPs of the agency that created it even know of the SAPs existence and/or what it protects. SAPs can even have sub-compartments that provide even further protection.

Practically speaking this offers what can be perceived to be "high levels of clearance" but in fact are all just plain jane Top Secret.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#154
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with your fundamental point, but I think you misunderstand how things become classified. It's always either a) due to how the information was collected b) something derived (citing) a piece of classified information. So a special collection platform may collect material at some high level of classification, anything that references that information (it could be 100,000 reports) are also all classifie…

It's not politicians certainly, but it's often unaccountable bureaucrats stamping something classified for questionable reasons. The conventional wisdom is that nobody ever got fired for classifying data, and the administration may classify a lot of information that is simply embarrassing. The Intellligence Squared US podcast did a nice job of covering both sides of this issue in their June 8th, 2011 podcast on freed…

You actually can't handle classified data, or derive something from classified data, that doesn't automatically classify the derived work (a report, or some such) at at least the same level. To not do that risks releasing the information and you can actually end up in prison over it, or at the very least lose your job.

So in 99% of the cases it's not like you make a decision to "classify" something. It is by its nature classified.

Think of it this way. You have a friend that tells you via email a secret. This secret can only be known between you and your friend. For example, you are arranging a surprise party for a third friend.

Using this knowledge it is your job to get a birthday cake that has the person's name and age (and a decoration) on it. But the only baker in town is also friends with the birthday friend. You don't want to risk the baker leaking the surprise of the cake to your friend. So you decide to buy a blank cake, and decorate it yourself.

This cake is also classified at the same level of the original information (Classified//only between you and your friend). Because it is derived from the knowledge of the birthday party email).

Now your friend prints off decorations with some party specific information, say a sign or some streamers or something. Those are also classified at the same level.

Suppose there are some other odds and ends that are a result of this email and the party plans. Say a "making of video" for the party etc.

Now let's say you also hire a clown for the party. You only provide the clown the time and place to come and perform, not any other details. Because the clown isn't in on the original secret, the arrangements for the clown and the various transaction documents pertaining to it are at a lower classification level. You might still not want the birthday friend to know that somebody he knows hired a clown on his birthday (a convenient coincidence) so you swear the clown to secrecy.

Even if it gets out and the birthday friend asks the clown directly, the clown has plausible dependability and doesn't know why he was hired, only that he was. So it's not good that your friend finds out, but it doesn't entirely screw up the surprise.

I'm stretching the analogy a bit, but hopefully that makes it clear how knowledge of single piece of information (the email that established the surprise party) can end up producing so many classified documents and how that process happens.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#155
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys aren't presenting real evidence, just making up numbers. 1:10 is absolutely ridiculous. If there are 4.2 million now (according to the Daily Mail article cited elsewhere), that's 1.36 percent. You're never going to get that to 10 percent, expecially since (as the DM article says) the currently high number is due to recent expansion of the number of people who have clearances (so you can't argue about tons of…

There are also also over 20 million military veterans in the United States; probably most of those will have had a security clearance. Once you add former federal employees and contractors, 10% isn't far off.

> probably most of those will have had a security clearance.

That is a particularly bad assumption. Private Gomer Pyle, USMC, did not have a security clearance.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are also also over 20 million military veterans in the United States; probably most of those will have had a security clearance. Once you add former federal employees and contractors, 10% isn't far off.

> probably most of those will have had a security clearance. That is a particularly bad assumption. Private Gomer Pyle, USMC, did not have a security clearance.

If your understanding of the military comes from 1960's television sitcoms, you're not qualified to discuss this subject.
Post reply on HN