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The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

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Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#111

Post by Torn »

pyre wrote: post #92
secthrowaway wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how things become classified. see previous comment here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3298594 Keep in mind that there are probably north of 1 in 150 Americans with current access to classified material. It's a huge number and just because you aren't in the club doesn't mean it's really all that hard to get in. Get a job that gets you a clearance and you can…

So 1 in 150 Americans have the high levels of clearance talked about in this article?

No, classified at some level.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#112

Post by littlebird »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #37

Does anyone know of any research into compartmentalized network protocols? Specifically I'm wondering about protocols where components co-operate to acheive some goal but don't know enough to compromise the entire network. I'm sure the botnet guys have done a lot of work on this but I'm wondering there are any good references in the open literature.

Not sure about network protocols, but, the systems research version of this is called multi-level secure systems. You might want to start looking there.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#113

Post by secthrowaway »

philwelch wrote: post #98
secthrowaway wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how things become classified. see previous comment here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3298594 Keep in mind that there are probably north of 1 in 150 Americans with current access to classified material. It's a huge number and just because you aren't in the club doesn't mean it's really all that hard to get in. Get a job that gets you a clearance and you can…

This comment is a little misleading; clearances don't give you unfettered access to classified information, they only allow you to receive whatever information you have a "need to know". A security clearance alone doesn't give you access to anything, it just tells the government you've had a background check and could potentially be trusted with certain information.

Well...it can be conflicting. At the Secret level, you tend to have access to much wider ranging information than in a SAP. A person working Intelligence in Japan for example, might also have access to information about Lithuania at that level. In fact, they probably do.

At TS it starts to get more restricted. You have more ability to request access to things outside your general area, but you may/may not get approved.

In the Compartments, my experience has been they are surprisingly global in nature, but focused in content. Meaning I can pretty much get that "kind" of information for any place on the planet, but it's only that "kind" of information. There's some exceptions, but not many.

SAP programs tend to be where it gets very focused. Often because they represent information only collected in your area using only a specific means. So there isn't a global collection of that kind of data -- well, there might be, but you aren't in all of the SAP programs to try and figure it out.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#114

Post by nosequel »

secthrowaway wrote: post #84
ImprovedSilence wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets even worse when you start to think that this information is probably also used to achieve a political ends to a means. By that I mean, those in charge of classifying things, know who has what classification, and should they play favorites or the opposite therof for anyone in their bureaucracy, information will lay hidden to all, just to keep it away from a few, solely for personal gain.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how things become classified. see previous comment here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3298594 Keep in mind that there are probably north of 1 in 150 Americans with current access to classified material. It's a huge number and just because you aren't in the club doesn't mean it's really all that hard to get in. Get a job that gets you a clearance and you can…

Well this is certainly only partly true. The difference between a generic Secret clearance and the level of clearance talked about in the article is probably bigger than the difference between having a secret clearance and not having one at all. I got my first secret clearance in a month or so, with the interim clearance coming in only a couple of weeks. Hardly anything that would be considered "oh cool!" is labelled Secret. Once you get to the up levels of clearances you start to have a harder and harder time getting and keeping that clearance. You make it sound easy, when in fact it isn't. I was on a small team and a surprisingly large percentage of people we tried to bring onto the team got their request for clearance denied. If you are trying to get a TS/SCI clearance and have a foreign born wife, or too much debt, or a gambling problem, or you used drugs and didn't announce that on your form, or you were completely sketched out on the polygraph, boom, no clearance for you (obviously those are just examples, not set in stone).

Also, once at the TS/SCI level and above everything in compartmentalized. It isn't as if you get the clearance, get some password to some digital book of secrets and all of a sudden you know what really went down at Area 51.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#115

Post by nosequel »

philwelch wrote: post #102
secthrowaway wrote: post #81

Thought I'd make a throw away and tip in as there are lots of people here who've never had a clearance and don't really understand what it's all about (I've had one for more than a decade). I'll try and answer some questions in the threads as I can. In the U.S. here's how it works (I'm writing this from the perspective of a contractor): You are hired to work on a government contract, that contract requires you to wor…

I thought polygraphs didn't work. Or is there classified information showing that they do?

Whether the machine works or doesn't work is irrelevant if they convince you during the poly that it does work. I had one, and the technician was far more intimidating than the machine. If I had something to hide, by the end he would have gotten it out of my I'm sure.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#116

Post by secthrowaway »

javert wrote: post #95
secthrowaway wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the work environments are pretty boring big-corp style stuff, except there's more locks on the doors and often you don't get any windows because people are stupid and open the blinds letting the world see what they're doing on their super squirrel network computer. If they do have windows, there's usually several layers of protection to prevent eavesdropping. There are many many networks, agency specific ones…

You said that there is no level strictly above Top Secret (just comparmentalizations within that). Is there any actual evidence for that? (I mean, non-classified evidence; I'm not asking you for classified information.) Where did you get the statistic about 1 in 50 to 70 Americans have had at least a Secret classification? That seems absurd. What are you talking about when you say "cut off from the outside world most…

All fair questions (I don't know why the down votes for you)!

"You said that there is no level strictly above Top Secret (just comparmentalizations within that). Is there any actual evidence for that? (I mean, non-classified evidence; I'm not asking you for classified information.)"

There are no levels strictly above Top Secret. At least as far as the military is concerned. SAP programs and compartmentalizations provide more than enough OPSEC to keep things classified. For example, I don't personally have access to the Nuke Codes. But the guys who do all have Top Secret clearances and are read onto some specific compartments and SAPs.

There are also clearance equivalencies at other agencies. DOE for example, has a different kind of system, but they more or less map to DoD clearances. Some agencies are highly compartmentalized, the CIA for example.

"Where did you get the statistic about 1 in 50 to 70 Americans have had at least a Secret classification? That seems absurd."

I don't know the exact number, but I have a pretty good idea that agrees with some back-of-the-brown-paper-bag calculations, it's perfectly within reason.

For example, say there are 1 million people in the military right now. And say all of them have at least a Secret clearance (it's probably more like 70%-80%, most jobs get you at least this clearance level just as a matter of course). That's about 1:300 (or 1:430 or so depending), say right now there are about 25 million veterans (from the Census), that's already 1 in 12.

During the Manning news, it was reported that currently there are more than 4 million people with clearances and one million of them had Top Secret clearances.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2041326/More-4-MILLI...

That pegs it at 1:75 right now with Secret levels and 1:300 with Top Secrets.

1:50-1:70 for people who do or have had access to classified material is is extremely conservative.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#117

Post by nosequel »

furyg3 wrote: post #94
secthrowaway wrote: post #81

Thought I'd make a throw away and tip in as there are lots of people here who've never had a clearance and don't really understand what it's all about (I've had one for more than a decade). I'll try and answer some questions in the threads as I can. In the U.S. here's how it works (I'm writing this from the perspective of a contractor): You are hired to work on a government contract, that contract requires you to wor…

You might also go through a slightly different polygraph with highly personal questions about your sex habits. Why do they do this? For blackmail purposes later?

It is call a "Lifestyle" Polygraph and it is meant to weed out anything that can be used against you in exchange for divulging secrets. The major component to most of the clearance questions revolve around bribery. People don't divulge secrets typically because they hate the government or the country, but for much more simple reasons like they need to pay rent and they figure they can sell some secrets.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#118

Post by secthrowaway »

nosequel wrote: post #114
secthrowaway wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how things become classified. see previous comment here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3298594 Keep in mind that there are probably north of 1 in 150 Americans with current access to classified material. It's a huge number and just because you aren't in the club doesn't mean it's really all that hard to get in. Get a job that gets you a clearance and you can…

Well this is certainly only partly true. The difference between a generic Secret clearance and the level of clearance talked about in the article is probably bigger than the difference between having a secret clearance and not having one at all. I got my first secret clearance in a month or so, with the interim clearance coming in only a couple of weeks. Hardly anything that would be considered "oh cool!" is labelled…

I'm actually surprised by this. I work with a ton of people with foreign born wives (many not even green carded yet) -- soldiers tend to marry where they are first stationed.

Also, I work with plenty of people with TS/SCIs who have used drugs in the past.

The key is just being honest with the investigators.

You are right that people with too much debt, gambling problems, current drug use, etc. don't get one. But that makes sense. I've worked with some pretty sketchy characters though and they didn't have a problem getting or keeping there clearances.

I don't think I've ever personally known somebody who had theirs denied, I've known one person who had their taken from them for doing some questionable things.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#119

Post by secthrowaway »

Torn wrote: post #111
pyre wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So 1 in 150 Americans have the high levels of clearance talked about in this article?

No, classified at some level.

Right. As to specific compartments and SAPs, I wouldn't have any idea what the number is (by design).

I've worked on SAP programs that had 3 people on them. Some of the larger compartments probably have hundreds of thousands read into them.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#120

Post by secthrowaway »

philwelch wrote: post #101
javert wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said that there is no level strictly above Top Secret (just comparmentalizations within that). Is there any actual evidence for that? (I mean, non-classified evidence; I'm not asking you for classified information.) Where did you get the statistic about 1 in 50 to 70 Americans have had at least a Secret classification? That seems absurd. What are you talking about when you say "cut off from the outside world most…

Secret ain't really that secret. That's why they invented Top Secret. Seriously, if you add up all the military veterans and people who used to work in defense/government contracting who have had to access slightly classified information, that's not an unreasonable ratio.

Right, my out-of-the-ass estimate is probably very conservative. It's probably an even lower ratio in reality, 1:10, 1:15 maybe?
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