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Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

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Re: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

#471

Post by MichaelCollins »

feet wrote: post #418
MichaelCollins wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first amendment restricts congress, not voters. Voters are free to vote for whatever politician they like for whatever reason they like, including religious reasons. The constitution does not demand that religious citizens demarcate and compartmentalize their religious and civic beliefs when they go to vote.

In theory it should restrict the representatives who got voted in from using their religious beliefs in legislating

It doesn't even do that. It restricts what kind of laws congress can create, not the reasoning congressmen use when choosing which laws to support.

Completely secular and constitutional laws may be enacted by congressmen that have religious reasons to support that law; e.g. religious legislator may vote for a law against murder because murder is against their religion. The first amendment doesn't regulate the thoughts and reasoning of legislators; religious reasoning for secular laws are fine.

And conversely, secular reasoning for religious laws doesn't make the law okay; a cynical atheist might say that religion is necessary for controlling the unwashed masses, but despite that secular reasoning, a law mandating a religion would still plainly violate the first amendment.

Re: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

#472

Post by MichaelCollins »

feet wrote: post #417
rendang wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We fought a whole war to end chattel slavery because a movement largely composed of pious Christians believed it to be sinful.

There was also a large amount of Christians who thought slavery was permitted by the Bible so I don't think that argument has a leg to stand on

The point is not that all religious reasoning leads to constitutional laws; that is obviously false. The point is that religious reasoning dos not necessarily lead to unconstitutional laws.

Re: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

#473

Post by MichaelCollins »

inglor_cz wrote: post #426
a-user-you-like wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first Amendment guarantees that Congress will not establish a religion. The states already had them established. And adultery was a capital crime, read between the lines. Look, if your daughters came to you and said “we want to be whores for a living”, you’ve got bigger issues than arguing on this website.

"And adultery was a capital crime" Are you confusing Islam with Christianity? Adultery is a capital crime in traditional Islamic jurisprudence.

From wikipedia:

> Laws against adultery in colonial America were very harsh. Despite this, there is only one known execution for adultery in American history: it occurred in the Colony of Massachusetts in 1643, when the married 18 year old Mary Latham[118] and her extramarital lover James Britton were executed.[119][120]

This is new to me, I had no idea. But it seems that in colonial Massachusetts at least, adultery was a capital crime. Technically colonial Massachusetts isn't Massachusetts state. I don't know when this/these laws were revised, but it seems plausible that some of them lasted past the colonial era.

Re: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

#474

Post by rayiner »

BurningFrog wrote: post #276
rayiner wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And civilized society routinely sets a floor for that “work or starve” dynamic, ensuring that there isn’t a race to the bottom and desperate people aren’t forced to take certain kinds of jobs. That’s because we understand that the legality of certain kinds of jobs creates social pressure on people in tough circumstances to do those jobs. Such regulation inherently requires society to make decisions about what sort of…

When desperate people aren’t allowed to take the kind of jobs they would have chosen, they end up even more desperate. Such rules are not made for the benefit of these powerless people.

No. As I said, they are made for the benefit of everyone else to prevent social race to the bottom.

Re: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

#475

Post by Volundr »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #473
inglor_cz wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And adultery was a capital crime" Are you confusing Islam with Christianity? Adultery is a capital crime in traditional Islamic jurisprudence.

From wikipedia: > Laws against adultery in colonial America were very harsh. Despite this, there is only one known execution for adultery in American history: it occurred in the Colony of Massachusetts in 1643, when the married 18 year old Mary Latham[118] and her extramarital lover James Britton were executed.[119][120] This is new to me, I had no idea. But it seems that in colonial Massachusetts at least, adultery…

These are the only two people ever known to be executed in the colonies or states to follow: https://horrorhistory.net/2021/03/21/pair-hanged-for-adulter...

Which makes sense. Too many lawmakers would have to be hanged if it was actually illegal, as there were plenty of scandals around affairs made public. Hamilton for example admitted to having an affair (https://www.history.com/news/alexander-hamilton-maria-reynol...), which would of course be a crazy thing to do if he could be hanged over it.

Re: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

#476

Post by User23 »

everforward wrote: post #459
User23 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without moralist obsessions with sex, nobody would care. That is an observably incoherent claim. Sex is a subject that virtually everyone obsesses over and cares about to a greater or lesser extent and literally everyone that does is moralist about it. You, for example, evidently hold the moral position that prostitution, pornography, and other sex-related commercial activity is either good or at least not bad.

I find that much more incoherent. It's absolutely possible to believe that things should be allowed without a moral component. I believe woodworking should be allowed. Not because it's "good" or "bad", but because people want to do it and there aren't sufficient harms to warrant trying to ban it. Some people feel the same about porn and sex work. It's something people want to do, they believe there aren't sufficient…

> I find that much more incoherent. It's absolutely possible to believe that things should be allowed without a moral component.

That’s a bit odd on account of claiming that something is morally neutral is clearly a moral assertion.

That being said, can you imagine why perhaps sex might have greater moral significance than canoe-making?

> Many people who use the word "good" to describe porn and sex work are describing it in the beneficial sense, not the moral sense.

That’s fascinatingly novel. Can you explain the difference or at least distinction between a “moral” “good” and a “beneficial” “good?”

Incidentally, talk of “beneficial” “good” makes me think of the classic Windows 2000 tagline: “New NT Technology.”

Re: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

#477

Post by MichaelCollins »

Volundr wrote: post #475
MichaelCollins wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From wikipedia: > Laws against adultery in colonial America were very harsh. Despite this, there is only one known execution for adultery in American history: it occurred in the Colony of Massachusetts in 1643, when the married 18 year old Mary Latham[118] and her extramarital lover James Britton were executed.[119][120] This is new to me, I had no idea. But it seems that in colonial Massachusetts at least, adultery…

These are the only two people ever known to be executed in the colonies or states to follow: https://horrorhistory.net/2021/03/21/pair-hanged-for-adulter... Which makes sense. Too many lawmakers would have to be hanged if it was actually illegal, as there were plenty of scandals around affairs made public. Hamilton for example admitted to having an affair ( https://www.history.com/news/alexander-hamilton-maria-reynol…

Well, even today adultry is illegal in some states, but thankfully not a capital crime. As of 2022 It's illegal in 16 states (including a few surprising states like New York) and a felony in 3 (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Oklahoma.)

But yes, enforcement is rare and probably for exactly the reason you say.

Re: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

#478

Post by lelanthran »

dymk wrote: post #262
lelanthran wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women oppose legalized sex work at higher rates than men, because they’d be the ones who would encounter social pressure to do sex work in tough economic circumstances if it became normalized. I don't think that's the only reason; even a few sex providers can distort the (mostly balanced) market for sex. IOW, if men don't feel the need to date just to get sex then there's fewer men in the market. This means that wo…

If a man wants to date just to get sex, then the woman missing that dating "opportunity" actually just dodged a bullet.

> If a man wants to date just to get sex, then the woman missing that dating "opportunity" actually just dodged a bullet.

I agree, but that still reduces the number of available men in the market, which was my point.

Re: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

#479

Post by MrVandemar »

reilly3000 wrote: post #461
BlargMcLarg wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do yourself a favor and read "Self-Made Man". It's obvious you're only seeing this from one side of the coin and lack the perspective of the other side in some kind of crusade. Both sexes have their problems and the status quo causes stigmas for both. To claim women are uniquely seen as "lesser beings" in a developed world is horribly naïve.

Blarg. I read the summary of it, it’s going on my list thx. I grew up with a patriarch mentality and took it into my marriage and business. It’s just plain wrong, it’s effects are severe, and it’s been a long personal journey to relearn and reinterpret stuff. I’m not on a crusade per se, but I guess I’m at a place where I’m now sharing aggregated angst I’ve heard from women and read about. Men absolutely have unmet n…

Re: the phrase I don't see colour. Do you have a reference or link for that research? That dovetails elegantly into something I'm dealing with right now.

Re: Why are sex workers forced to wear a financial scarlet letter?

#480

Post by bergenty »

x86x87 wrote: post #467
bergenty wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t agree with that. I think the puritans were onto something and I want a partial return to those ideals.

you can disagree with that and you can want whatever. Let's just hope that the morality police that you want to instate does not disagree with you and bans you out of existence.

It probably won’t because I just want to maintain the status quo.
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