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S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

sfchronicle.com

101–110 of 222 posts

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just make city policies such that there's no advantage to being homeless in SF I don't see any advantage to being homeless. Literally every human being without mental issues would prefer having a roof over their head. This is a market failure.

Apparently, people who would be successful and housed in cheaper markets do prefer being homeless in SF over moving.

> people who would be successful and housed in cheaper markets

Do you have proof that they would, in fact, be successful? Have you tried running an RCT? Maybe they would't be able to find jobs, or have childcare available from family nearby.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#102
Rent should be Anyone who is chronically homeless should be offered jobs and paid housing. If that doesn't work, then they become a ward of the state and treated as a child.

[1] https://www.chase.com/personal/banking/education/budgeting-s....

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to leave drugs users, on the most potent substances ever created, in open-air drug camps full of violence, rape, filth, more drugs, etc? Do you expect them to one day pull the fentanyl out of their arm and walk over to the Apple store to get a job? The drugs, and the camps, kill people . If they don't have the wherewithal to move then we need to do it for them. They can't get better while living in filth and…

Yup, I would love to see all this people contributing to solve the problem, or actually taking a homeless person to live with them, etc...

Taking a druggie to live with you will destroy your home and your life. It's not voluntary.

Once they get detoxed though they're going to be looking for a room to rent and a friend and now your offer of help is both wanted and sustainable.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#104
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This suit is the kick-it-down-the-road and make someone else pay for it answer. Most of these homeless are not from SF or nearby. Moreover, their salvation isn't going to be sitting in an open drug camp. People are acting like SF is pulling people out of hospital beds or something when they actually try to help. The correct answer is what Portugal does. Detain and imprison drug users for three to five years in a non-…

This or build massive drug cities in the desert, where people can go and live their drug-addicted lives away from everyone else.

If the drug addicted were capable of operating their own cities, they already would be. They obviously need a non drug addicted population to support them.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#105

'Unsheltered' is a propaganda word and a fig leaf for the very sad reality that we have a chronic opioid and meth crisis which tips many people over into serious mental illness. Giving these individuals expensive housing is not going to solve anything. California is a magnet for substance abuse casualties and as then SF mayor Newsom found at the end of his grandiose plan to 'end homelessness' ever more people arrived…

Primary cause of homelessness in SF, according to a 2019 survey conducted by Applied Survey Research for the City of San Francisco:

Lost Job 26% Alcohol or Drug Use 18% Eviction 13% Argument with Family or Friend Who Asked You to Leave 12% Mental Health Issues 8% Divorce/Separation/Breakup 5%

https://hsh.sfgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2019HIRDRep...

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#106

'Unsheltered' is a propaganda word and a fig leaf for the very sad reality that we have a chronic opioid and meth crisis which tips many people over into serious mental illness. Giving these individuals expensive housing is not going to solve anything. California is a magnet for substance abuse casualties and as then SF mayor Newsom found at the end of his grandiose plan to 'end homelessness' ever more people arrived…

Realistically, the only way we can solve this is with incarceration. This has little to do with the availability of housing, or the cost of housing. Some people will simply refuse to live in the housing that is provided. Many are so mentally ill and addicted to drugs that no amount of money we give them, either directly or indirectly, will get them off the streets. Proposed solutions that don't involve incarceration…

> Proposed solutions that don't involve incarceration should be ignored as unserious and unrealistic.

Incarceration has been our primary approach for dealing with drug addiction and mental illness over the last 42 years. It is extremely expensive, with cost-per-inmate figures ranging from $15K-64K depending on the state, with California being the most expensive. I don't know of any public policy experts, regardless of their political leanings who consider this an effective approach.

I think people fail to recognize that part of the push to "decriminalize" drugs and homelessness isn't necessarily bleeding-heart progressivism but calculated austerity: Prisons are full. We want murders, rapists and violent criminals locked up in them. We cannot do that if they are clogged up with people whose primary offenses were being mentally ill and/or drugs.

I understand that California in particular has been more lax the rest of the country, but coming from the midwest our hard-ass drug laws didn't prevent meth and then heroin from ravaging both urban and rural communities.

So if you do want to simply lock these people away, I think you also need the political will to do two very important things:

1) Provide evidence that spending $15,000-$65,000 to incarcerate a homeless drug addict will produce a better outcome than spending those same public tax dollars on something else that could also benefit society and/or the individuals in question.

2) Raise and invest tax money into prison infrastructure to house these people. This will likely mean hiking taxes and/or cutting them from things like education.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think so? What makes SF have so many more drug addicted or mentally ill people, compared to cities with sane housing prices?

Good weather, good services, no law enforcement harassment.

You're saying mentally ill, drug addicted people are capable of making rational decisions such as this. But in another thread, you also claimed that regular people who "would be successful and housed" in cheaper places don't make the seemingly rational decision to move away. How?

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#108
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Worse than the people outside your windows screaming, having fights, r*ping each other, being abused, assaulting others? Is very easy to judge when you don't live the consequences.

Anecdotally, I have SF colleagues who surprisingly often have to interrupt phone calls to check on disturbances outside. Filing a police report does nothing even for battery.

I'm still amazed by this Greater LA story where a vagrant has holed up on a woman's front porch, and the police won't do anything.

[0] https://abc7.com/van-nuys-los-angeles-homeless-man-porch-tak...

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#109

'Unsheltered' is a propaganda word and a fig leaf for the very sad reality that we have a chronic opioid and meth crisis which tips many people over into serious mental illness. Giving these individuals expensive housing is not going to solve anything. California is a magnet for substance abuse casualties and as then SF mayor Newsom found at the end of his grandiose plan to 'end homelessness' ever more people arrived…

Realistically, the only way we can solve this is with incarceration. This has little to do with the availability of housing, or the cost of housing. Some people will simply refuse to live in the housing that is provided. Many are so mentally ill and addicted to drugs that no amount of money we give them, either directly or indirectly, will get them off the streets. Proposed solutions that don't involve incarceration…

I agree that incarceration isn't progressive, but is it conservative? I mean I'm sure conservatives will appreciate brutalizing (those they perceive as) criminals for little more than the sake of it, but prisons in California aren't cheap, and is there much appetite for even more taxation?

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#110
There's quite a bit of confusion in this thread regarding "chronic homelessness" vs "temporary/short-term homelessness". The solution for short-term homelessness is generally the use of "emergency shelters", of which San Francisco has many. However, emergency shelters do little to nothing to address chronic homelessness, which requires long-term supportive housing, something San Francisco has very little of.

This difference, which gets lost in discussions such as the one here, leads to bad-faith statements by politicians and others regarding the true amount of housing available for homeless people. For example, the number of "available beds" touted by Newsom and others are almost entirely within short-term emergency shelters, which do not address the real problem (chronic homelessness) much at all. Instead, this "number-of-beds" statistic is used to gloss over the fact that a real solution has not been found, and then justify (probably illegal) police action against homeless people. The true intent of such actions is probably to cause regular disruption in the lives of homeless people to increase the difficulty of simply being homeless in San Francisco. Whether or not you agree with such police action is up to you, but it's important to acknowledge that the argument that "there is available housing" is a bad faith argument, and that this argument is simply used to redirect attention from both police action against homeless people as well as the fact that a real solution has not been found.

Here's a citation that describes the differences between short term emergency housing and long term housing, which illuminates why the current approach being taken by San Francisco is not genuine as well as approaches that might actually work:

National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. (2018). Permanent supportive housing: Evaluating the evidence for improving health outcomes among people experiencing chronic homelessness.

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