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S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

sfchronicle.com

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Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just make city policies such that there's no advantage to being homeless in SF I don't see any advantage to being homeless. Literally every human being without mental issues would prefer having a roof over their head. This is a market failure.

> Literally every human being without mental issues That's the problem right there.

Is there evidence that 100% of SF's homeless have mental issues?

Are you aware that mentally ill and drug-addicted people are often able to hold down jobs and afford rent? But that only works when rent is reasonable.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#92

Quoted post unavailable.

This suit is the kick-it-down-the-road and make someone else pay for it answer. Most of these homeless are not from SF or nearby. Moreover, their salvation isn't going to be sitting in an open drug camp. People are acting like SF is pulling people out of hospital beds or something when they actually try to help. The correct answer is what Portugal does. Detain and imprison drug users for three to five years in a non-…

This or build massive drug cities in the desert, where people can go and live their drug-addicted lives away from everyone else.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#93

'Unsheltered' is a propaganda word and a fig leaf for the very sad reality that we have a chronic opioid and meth crisis which tips many people over into serious mental illness. Giving these individuals expensive housing is not going to solve anything. California is a magnet for substance abuse casualties and as then SF mayor Newsom found at the end of his grandiose plan to 'end homelessness' ever more people arrived…

Is this an intuitive take or a data take? My understanding is that much of the data disagrees with the idea that homelessness is driven by drug abuse. Things like the strong association between homelessness and housing costs + just survey data implying most homeless people don't move to SF as homeless people, all sort of implies that. Worth noting though, unsheltered isn't the same as homeless. Many homeless people are sheltered either in shelters, their cars, or friends homes.

I think intuitively it seem likely to me that drugs might be the difference between chronically homeless people and merely temporary, it also seems like it might have a relationship with the people you encounter on the street and get mad about seeing, but the studies of the overall population seem to say homelessness is causing drug use not the other way around

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically, the only way we can solve this is with incarceration. This has little to do with the availability of housing, or the cost of housing. Some people will simply refuse to live in the housing that is provided. Many are so mentally ill and addicted to drugs that no amount of money we give them, either directly or indirectly, will get them off the streets. Proposed solutions that don't involve incarceration…

This is absolutely appalling. Considering we've historically incarcerated these people and it didn't fix anything, I don't see how you can blame "progressive" attempts to solve the crisis. Do more people come to these cities that have such policies? Probably... but that's not an indictment of the policy. We have a national crisis. We have some cities/states who literally pay for 1-way bus tickets out (as an alternati…

It solves something for people at the destination of those bus tickets.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been homeless without using drugs and without being mentally ill. Honestly I don't see the big deal if you sleep in a tent and use appropriate sanitation. I was always careful to pack in pack out, to respect the community, to not become intoxicated, and to dispose of waste appropriately. IMO the homeless issue is San Francisco is because they've practically incentivized being homeless by subsidizing the homeless…

> Just make city policies such that there's no advantage to being homeless in SF I don't see any advantage to being homeless. Literally every human being without mental issues would prefer having a roof over their head. This is a market failure.

Apparently, people who would be successful and housed in cheaper markets do prefer being homeless in SF over moving.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#96
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically, the only way we can solve this is with incarceration. This has little to do with the availability of housing, or the cost of housing. Some people will simply refuse to live in the housing that is provided. Many are so mentally ill and addicted to drugs that no amount of money we give them, either directly or indirectly, will get them off the streets. Proposed solutions that don't involve incarceration…

Quoted post unavailable.

You need to look at Canada, the Netherlands, Portugal, and other American cities.

Canada never tried to mass incarceration imprison-away the problem and they're rapidly discovering that they actually need some criminal charges and some incarceration or people don't care to improve. Taking fentanyl is literally the best feeling thing in life and you expect a junkie to just stop living in a free-drug camp?

The Netherlands and Portugal though have an incarceration-based rehab program. They don't ask the junkie if they're ready, they pick up anyone drugged out in public. But their programs work because there's essentially no other choice. You can't just refuse to detox because they don't give you free Fentanyl like Vancouver and SF. You can't support a junkie by giving them poison. They wean you, in 3-9 months, with long-halflife opioid agonists and then you spend years, sober, learning to live clean.

The policies you support are killing people with kindness.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there were a million empty houses in San Francisco that were available free of charge, there would still be a massive homelessness problem because the real issue is not lack of housing, it's drug addiction and mental illness.

Why do you think so? What makes SF have so many more drug addicted or mentally ill people, compared to cities with sane housing prices?

Because everyone knows that SF will tolerate behavior that other cities will not, and that attracts the most problematic homeless people from all over the country. It's practically a network effect for homeless encampments.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#98

California has enough shelter space and housing for the true (involuntary) homeless, meaning those who are homeless because they can't afford housing, or because they have a mental illness and can't maintain housing on their own. Almost all of our shelters are sober facilities, meaning no drugs or alcohol, which is what led to the formation of homeless camps: drug addicts don't have to get rid of their drugs if they…

> Camp sweeps are a good thing. They disincentivize drug hotspots, get the mentally ill into shelters where they can be treated, and improve safety for everyone else.

I think if it disincentivizes drug hotspots, the effect is weak. I would say it temporarily moves the same people by a very short distance. You still see the same issues in the same neighborhoods, week after week. Similarly, if this is meant to be a mechanism for helping people with mental illness get to help, it's not effective. I see the same characters over and over again.

I would also argue it doesn't improve safety for everyone else. If anything, when a sweep happens, it creates a sudden stream of agitated, physically and emotionally unsettled people, moving through the street. Normally in my neighborhood walking _past_ an encampment isn't too bad. Walking home when a sweep has just happened nearby is much less comfortable.

I think what's really happening is theater. Local officials and institutions need to appear to be active more than they need to be actually effective. So while we're not actually solving problems, we're having the most visible homelessness shepherded from block to block.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there were a million empty houses in San Francisco that were available free of charge, there would still be a massive homelessness problem because the real issue is not lack of housing, it's drug addiction and mental illness.

Why do you think so? What makes SF have so many more drug addicted or mentally ill people, compared to cities with sane housing prices?

Good weather, good services, no law enforcement harassment.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#100
I would recommend that anyone who pays taxes boycott and cancel San Francisco. it will only make a dent, but it’s a start.

Everyday, there is a missed opportunity to clean up the streets: https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/bayarea/heatherknight/article...

[..]In what has become a five-alarm fire for many women in the city — spread on social media — several alleged victims have posted photos of the distinctive-looking Hobbs, a 6-foot-4 white man with a buzz cut and a body covered in tattoos, including the E-V-I-L tag on his fingers.

The fact that a San Francisco Superior Court judge dismissed a case against Hobbs in which he was accused of following and grabbing a 15-year-old girl — first reported in this column — is well known by now. So is the fact that he’s back on the streets despite a long arrest record in four counties, despite admitting to me in a phone interview that he follows women he finds attractive, and despite the flood of new complaints.

But it turns out city officials had another chance to intervene on Aug. 11 — and again came up short.[..]

[..]A police report states that he entered a home on Avila Street in the Marina while the owner, who left the door unlocked, was out walking his dog. When the owner returned and found Hobbs standing in his hallway, he called police and told them the intruder kept saying, “I want a house like this.”

Hobbs, according to the report, initially told officers he was “Scott Peterson,” using the name of the California man who notoriously killed his pregnant wife.[..]

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