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Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

nytimes.com

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Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#181

Post by Tangurena2 »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #43
boomboomsubban wrote: post #37

This doesn't seem drastically different than what was openly happening to Native Americans in the US until the passage of the Indian Child Welfare Act in 1978. By some estimates, as many as 3/4ths of Native American children were taken from their families for adoption or foster care. And that's assuming the law stopped the practice, some states still see many Native American children shipped to non-Native communities…

Likewise, the Stolen Generation in Australia.

Some of the "orphan trains" in US history were populated with children stolen from urban hospitals & orphanages. Poor, unwed and/or Catholic mothers were told the child was stillborn, but it was instead sent "out West" to be raised Protestant.

19th Century America was extremely anti-Catholic. Many immigrants from predominantly Catholic countries were treated as "not white" or "not white enough" and discriminated against.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#182

Post by confidantlake »

motohagiography wrote: post #177
krajzeg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radical ideology craves credibility. I would suppose that for that reason, the regimes interested in treating a subset of people as inferior would look for experts who could testify to that fact. These end up being doctors and psychiatrists, since they are considered authorities on the human body and mind respectively. As for doctors themselves, I would think they are exactly like any other group of people: when a ra…

I think what twigged me is the expectation that doctors are supposed to be better than that. Doctors are explicity not like any other group of people. The whole point in giving them the immense powers we do comes with the expectation that when it falls to them to be brave or noble, they are willing to take that responsibility. Otherwise, there is no reason not to have barbers do most surgeries, apothacaries prescribe…

In an ideal world yes, but in the real one they are just normal people like you and me. Some are good, some bad, some in the middle. My personal experience has been the overwhelming majority have been kind, intelligent people. But even if 5% are bad, that is still enough for any despotic regime to make use of.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#183

Post by confidantlake »

chiefgeek wrote: post #167
wyager wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors used to be viewed with (justified) suspicion. That suspicion is mostly still justified, but doctors are riding the coattails of several significant medical inventions in the last 100 years, especially antibiotics. This gives them a lot of credibility (justified or not), and the political consequences of this are not ideal. Hopefully this will eventually return to equilibrium and people will stop treating doct…

What do you call the person who came in last in the class in medical school? Doctor.

I like the joke, but in truth it is often failed to secure residency. What do you call the resident who did worst in his residency? just doesn't role off the tongue as nicely :)

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#184

Post by kderbyma »

squarefoot wrote: post #150

This is not just history, there are numerous reports of mass children abductions happening in Ukraine since the Russian invasion. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/14/ukraine-k...

This is a common propaganda tactic as well. so it really does require evidence....it seems a conflict isnt a conflict until the incubators get in the news.....

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#185

Post by troon-lover »

_HMCB_ wrote: post #161
aa-jv wrote: post #128

White Stolen Generation (Australian variant), checking in. My mother was physically, emotionally and pyschologically tortured by her own government for the simple fact of having had me, out of wedlock. I was taken as a baby, to be relocated to another family - a "proper, white one", that met the standards of the government at the time. Mum fought and screamed and kicked down the doors, and got a lawyer. And, a little…

I can’t imagine anyone doing this to a mother/family. It sickens me. The desperation your mother must have felt is unbearable to think about. I’m glad she fought for you. Thanks for sharing your story.

No post body was provided.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#186

Post by motohagiography »

confidantlake wrote: post #182
motohagiography wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what twigged me is the expectation that doctors are supposed to be better than that. Doctors are explicity not like any other group of people. The whole point in giving them the immense powers we do comes with the expectation that when it falls to them to be brave or noble, they are willing to take that responsibility. Otherwise, there is no reason not to have barbers do most surgeries, apothacaries prescribe…

In an ideal world yes, but in the real one they are just normal people like you and me. Some are good, some bad, some in the middle. My personal experience has been the overwhelming majority have been kind, intelligent people. But even if 5% are bad, that is still enough for any despotic regime to make use of.

I would agree with the small minority argument, but it still understates their impact. They aren't like you or I either, because when you spend an extra decade in school, their life experiences are essentially alien to people outside it. Cops are similar, where at a point, you have to ask how good the rest of a closed loop and gated network could be if they haven't isolated the worst ones. Doctors as a profession lost a lot of public trust over the pandemic because of the few who gave up their integrity to become political actors, and then the colleges punished doctors who stood up to them. The problem is that the 5%-bad minority just happen to be in the professional governance and administration, similar to how police union/associations were responsible for the worst abuses.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#187

Post by Zardoz84 »

nudpiedo wrote: post #50
unity1001 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure that the fascists had nothing to do with it How will large-scale abduction of babies and deceiving of the parents by telling them that their baby died can happen without the cooperation of the state - openly or clandestinely. Especially considering how a lot of those related to these incidents belonged to the Catholic church and they were not only protected by the fascists but were an actual appendage…

Plain corruption and some useful idiots, like all such stories. there is no need to be political influence on the mix for the evil.

It keep happening in the 80 and 90's.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#188

Post by yazzku »

dang wrote: post #109
yazzku wrote: post #4

Quoted post unavailable.

Religious flamewar is not allowed on HN. Please don't post like this, regardless of how badly other people have behaved or how strongly you feel about it. Other kinds of flamewar aren't allowed either, but religious flamewar is particularly bad and particularly avoidable. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33003645 are particularly not ok. Please…

What I stated is factually correct, unlike the BS from the troll who created an account just to reply to this thread (see the comments under his account). Facts are not allowed on HN when they bother other people?

You're also falsely accusing me of religious flamewar. This has nothing to do with religion; my snarky remark on Jesus not approving was just to show that the Catholic Church bears no moral authority, really since its inception. Let's not even discuss crusades or Spanish genocide in South America. These are simple facts that anyone who has studied history can see for themselves. I obviously mean no disrespect to Jesus or his followers.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#189

Post by yazzku »

Eleison23 wrote: post #20
yazzku wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously don't know history, unless 'lightweight persecution' includes torture in your dictionary. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Tomas-de-Torquemada

Ah, Encyclopedia Britannica - the British Empire, having established the Anglican ecclesial community in defiance of Rome, mortal ancient enemies of the Spanish Empire. I'm sure they have no motive to embellish black legends about the Romish Church and English Catholics like St. Thomas More and William Shakespeare were perfectly safe to practice their faith and attend Popish Masses and priests never needed to hide fr…

There are plenty of Spanish references too. I linked to one the general audience here could read.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#190

Post by xani_ »

motohagiography wrote: post #24

Medicine and psychiatry often seem to be at the center of these regimes. Is there sometihng about doctors and ideology that goes so closely together? Maybe it's the pretext the regimes to suspend rules and rationality. German doctors began a "euthenasia" program several years before the war broke out, and no governing body of theirs seems to have historically been above using prisoners for medical experiments. Even r…

Or religion. Actually, probably mostly religion.

> Even recently, doctors even consult on enhanced interrogation techniques, and seem to favour some pretty heavy handed public health policy. As a profession, is there something fundamentally wrong with many of them that we tolerate for their expertise?

Why you want to blame it on a profession and assume the distribution of crazies is not uniform?

Only difference is that doctor can pretend it's for medical reasons, while say, a plumber, wouldn't be able to fabricate plausible evidence to support their derangements.

And as usual with large groups the extremes are loudest and most noticeable.

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