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Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

nytimes.com

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Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#41

Post by Turing_Machine »

Eleison23 wrote: post #20
yazzku wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously don't know history, unless 'lightweight persecution' includes torture in your dictionary. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Tomas-de-Torquemada

Ah, Encyclopedia Britannica - the British Empire, having established the Anglican ecclesial community in defiance of Rome, mortal ancient enemies of the Spanish Empire. I'm sure they have no motive to embellish black legends about the Romish Church and English Catholics like St. Thomas More and William Shakespeare were perfectly safe to practice their faith and attend Popish Masses and priests never needed to hide fr…

The Encyclopedia Britannica is a U.S. publication, and has been for well over a hundred years.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#42

Post by EdwardDiego »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #22
Barrin92 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

directly from the article: "But one of the most lasting abuses of the era was borne by children. In the late 1930s and 1940s, Antonio Vallejo-Nájera, a leading psychiatrist in the regime who was trained in Nazi Germany, promoted the idea of a Marxist “red gene” carried by the children of Franco’s left-wing opponents. The gene, he said, might be suppressed by removing children from their mothers and placing them with…

> Antonio Vallejo-Nájera was explicit about the political/eugenic character of these transfers There's nothing "eugenic" about a policy with a premise of "these children have bad genes, but we can overcome that by getting the right people to raise them". That is the opposite of eugenics.

I feel like "Being a Commie is genetic" is perfectly representative of the oddball ideological thinking that eugenics policies rapidly acquire, even if they didn't forcibly sterilize them.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#43

Post by EdwardDiego »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #37

This doesn't seem drastically different than what was openly happening to Native Americans in the US until the passage of the Indian Child Welfare Act in 1978. By some estimates, as many as 3/4ths of Native American children were taken from their families for adoption or foster care. And that's assuming the law stopped the practice, some states still see many Native American children shipped to non-Native communities…

Likewise, the Stolen Generation in Australia.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#44

Post by lisper »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #43
boomboomsubban wrote: post #37

This doesn't seem drastically different than what was openly happening to Native Americans in the US until the passage of the Indian Child Welfare Act in 1978. By some estimates, as many as 3/4ths of Native American children were taken from their families for adoption or foster care. And that's assuming the law stopped the practice, some states still see many Native American children shipped to non-Native communities…

Likewise, the Stolen Generation in Australia.

Canada too.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/canada-apologizes-to-aboriginal...

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#45

Post by eyelidlessness »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #37

This doesn't seem drastically different than what was openly happening to Native Americans in the US until the passage of the Indian Child Welfare Act in 1978. By some estimates, as many as 3/4ths of Native American children were taken from their families for adoption or foster care. And that's assuming the law stopped the practice, some states still see many Native American children shipped to non-Native communities…

“Openly” is probably going to throw some people off here, because it’s knowable history but not widely broadcasted or widely known.

I think (and hope) your intent is to draw the parallel so similar programs targeting natives in the US (and Canada, I’ll add, they seldom diverge very far) can be viewed in the same light. I’m not adding much nuance besides noting that your wording could be misinterpreted as a dismissive “nothing new under the sun, happened openly in the US well after too” rather than what I think (and hope) you mean as a more inclusive “these programs which continued in the US very closely resemble fascist programs, and that’s important too”.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#46

Post by picsao »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #38
wyager wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I don't think "not as bad as Hitler" is a bar one should be aiming for. I was specifically referring to the Catholic Church's penchant for treating unmarried mothers and poor children like trash. Like in Ireland: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/9-000-children-died-irish... And in Britain and Australia: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/03/catholic-chu... And in Canada: https://www.france24.com/en/americ…

No post body was provided.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#47

Post by eyelidlessness »

motohagiography wrote: post #24

Medicine and psychiatry often seem to be at the center of these regimes. Is there sometihng about doctors and ideology that goes so closely together? Maybe it's the pretext the regimes to suspend rules and rationality. German doctors began a "euthenasia" program several years before the war broke out, and no governing body of theirs seems to have historically been above using prisoners for medical experiments. Even r…

If the postwar trials have any integrity—and I believe they had some if certainly not enough—you could say the same of people organizing rail schedules. And you’d be right if your ire is directed at Eichmann, but probably wouldn’t be able to reasonably generalize it to rail operators. I can’t imagine a similar extrapolation being reasonable to any doctor whose field isn’t directly implicated in the “race science” and various other explicit fascist ideological ideas.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#49

Post by afc »

Eleison23 wrote: post #20
yazzku wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously don't know history, unless 'lightweight persecution' includes torture in your dictionary. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Tomas-de-Torquemada

Ah, Encyclopedia Britannica - the British Empire, having established the Anglican ecclesial community in defiance of Rome, mortal ancient enemies of the Spanish Empire. I'm sure they have no motive to embellish black legends about the Romish Church and English Catholics like St. Thomas More and William Shakespeare were perfectly safe to practice their faith and attend Popish Masses and priests never needed to hide fr…

Seems fairly accurate in this case. You can also read about it in Wikipedia anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_de_Torquemada

You can see all the references in the article (including but not limited to Britannica).

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#50

Post by nudpiedo »

unity1001 wrote: post #12
syrusakbary wrote: post #8

This has been a big topic in Spain in the last 10 years. It's great to see that most of the cases are being opened to the public now. Note: I'm from Spain While it's true that this happened under the fascist rule of Franco, I'm not sure that the fascists had nothing to do with it, so I think the article title is a bit misleading. In my view, this issue was mainly caused by two things: 1. Imbalance of power, where pow…

> I'm not sure that the fascists had nothing to do with it How will large-scale abduction of babies and deceiving of the parents by telling them that their baby died can happen without the cooperation of the state - openly or clandestinely. Especially considering how a lot of those related to these incidents belonged to the Catholic church and they were not only protected by the fascists but were an actual appendage…

Plain corruption and some useful idiots, like all such stories. there is no need to be political influence on the mix for the evil.
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