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Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

nytimes.com

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Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#91

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

aubanel wrote: post #61
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to say the Catholic Church often seems to be at the center of these regimes, but I guess we all see things through our own lens.

Do you have rationale supporting the hand of the Church in fascist regimes? The Catholic Church expressed its rejection of fascism via the strongest possible channel: an encyclic written by Pius XI in 1937, _Mit Brennender Sorge_, was read during the Sunday mass in all churches of Germany although the Nazis were already repressing opponents. Even more: according to statistical studies, out of many socioeconomic varia…

Regardless of what the encyclic said, the truth is that in Spain the Church closely colaborated with the fascist Franco regime, to the point that in many practical respects they were one and the same.

There is ample evidence that you can find with some obvious Googling, but I think this image is a good visual summary:

https://www.gettyimages.es/detail/fotografía-de-noticias/gen...

This is how the Catholic Church treated Franco (not sporadically, but as a custom, you can find plenty of images like that): under a canopy, like they do with images of Saints or the Virgin.

I think in the face of that, anyone will agree that encyclic was not worth the paper it was written on.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#92

Post by Ligma123 »

EntropyIsAHoax wrote: post #84
oilslick wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Except that people undergoing these surgeries do so willingly, face massive barriers to ensure they are thinking clearly and understand the consequences, show minimal regret rates, often have to undergo extensive psychological counseling beforehand, etc... Except for everything it's exactly the same.

Except that is not the case where many people who now wish to "detransition" claim neither them or their parents got a good explanation of the consequences of such surgical procedures or the medicine they'd be prescribed, from medical doctors, who guess what, are in it for the money.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#93

Post by _trampeltier »

lisper wrote: post #44
EdwardDiego wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise, the Stolen Generation in Australia.

Canada too. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/canada-apologizes-to-aboriginal...

Switzerland too

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdingkinder

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#94

Post by vanderZwan »

Zardoz84 wrote: post #72
boomboomsubban wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was saying these programs don't need to be run by fascist dictators who forged documents far away in the distant past. The democratic US either did or does the same kind of thing without that kind of deception.

The fact, is that the stolen babies here, on Spain, keep happening in the 80 and early 90. And we had a democratic governments since 80's

It's a painful reminder that just installing a new government (or new leadership in any context) doesn't magically make all the power structures that existed before it go away.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#95

Post by pasquinelli »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #90
Schroedingersat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're pointing that implication arrow the wrong way there.

I genuinely have no idea what you mean, please explain further.

i take their meaning to be that the conclusion to draw is that the united states is fascist because (among other things i'm sure) they ran a program a fascist government ran (before the fascist government even), rather than concluding that even non-fascist countries run these types of programs.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#96

Post by kgwgk »

drekipus wrote: post #78
kgwgk wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they were openly called fascist By whom? Some political factions before the war were close to Italian fascism but the after-war dictatorship was not fascist in any meaningful sense.

oh I just meant that it seems to me that everyone is quite open to saying it was fascist Spain, including (as far as I know) francoists themselves. I don't mind the title, and I know that it was only semi-fascist, but the main point I'm making is that the title seems to bring about connotations that might not warrant it (from my casual observations).

> including (as far as I know) francoists themselves

Are you referring to someone in particular?

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#97

Post by Ligma123 »

wyager wrote: post #27
motohagiography wrote: post #24

Medicine and psychiatry often seem to be at the center of these regimes. Is there sometihng about doctors and ideology that goes so closely together? Maybe it's the pretext the regimes to suspend rules and rationality. German doctors began a "euthenasia" program several years before the war broke out, and no governing body of theirs seems to have historically been above using prisoners for medical experiments. Even r…

Doctors used to be viewed with (justified) suspicion. That suspicion is mostly still justified, but doctors are riding the coattails of several significant medical inventions in the last 100 years, especially antibiotics. This gives them a lot of credibility (justified or not), and the political consequences of this are not ideal. Hopefully this will eventually return to equilibrium and people will stop treating doct…

Just look up for the amount of deaths for medical malpractice in most developed countries.

Not all doctors and nurses are that technically good to justify that we don't keep a sensible amount of suspicion, or when receiving a diagnosis shouldn't look for a second, or even third opinion.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#98

Post by absolutelynobo »

Ligma123 wrote: post #92
EntropyIsAHoax wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that people undergoing these surgeries do so willingly, face massive barriers to ensure they are thinking clearly and understand the consequences, show minimal regret rates, often have to undergo extensive psychological counseling beforehand, etc... Except for everything it's exactly the same.

Except that is not the case where many people who now wish to "detransition" claim neither them or their parents got a good explanation of the consequences of such surgical procedures or the medicine they'd be prescribed, from medical doctors, who guess what, are in it for the money.

“Many people” being substantially in the minority, like 1-5% of an already microscopic population. Non-surgical puberty blockers are completely reversible and do not sterilize. Please don’t spread irrelevant, hateful flamewar bait and FUD in random threads as a way to Cunningham yourself out of ignorance.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#99

Post by lordgrenville »

DSingularity wrote: post #2

Reminds me of the Yemenite stolen babies. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2016-07-31/ty-article/hu...

Worth noting that it is hotly disputed if this actually happened, or if it was just a handful of cases. I don't really have an opinion - my understanding is that it's plausible but there is currently no evidence for it. (Except for the government acting quite suspiciously every time it's asked to investigate.)

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#100

Post by Ligma123 »

unity1001 wrote: post #13
adolph wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point someone has to expect something Inquisition-like in Spain, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-f%C3%A9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spanish_Inquisition_(Monty...

Result of 500 year old Elizabethan propaganda. Actual historical records show that Inquisition persecution was SO lightweight and tolerant that even ordinary criminals tried to get themselves reclassified as religious offenders to be able to get off lightly.

Most of these people never actually dug into anything, but just accept the popular idea that the Inquisition tortured millions.

La leyenda negra, is a concept that doesn't reach many people in the anglo-saxon world

It's a lost cause.

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