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Harrison Bergeron (1961)

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Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#231

Revisiting mid-century dystopian fiction seems like it might yield some insights about the present. I didn't know who the story was by until the last line. I studied his work in 9th grade english class, and it just clicked how meaningful it is that I was part of a lot of experimental education programs as a kid. One could legitimately say I escaped from a lab, and my phone has also been on silent mode with alerts tur…

Ire?

Indeed, ire. I was mixing it up with someone's name when I dashed that off. Should remember it from Dies Irae.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#232
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably a vain attempt by management to put a shine on a cost cutting exercise. There is a poisonous ideology at work in the background but ultimately defunding schools comes from a desire for more inequality, not less.

"A desire for more inequality"? That smacks of "good people support Policy X, even if it achieves the opposite of its goals in the long run. To acknowledge that and oppose Policy X, even on its own merits, makes you evil in intent." Few people actually have desires like "I want more inequality", even if they oppose a policy which intends to decrease it.

A lot of the modern American progressive argument presupposes the validity of its own assumptions. It's entirely circular logic.

> oppose a policy which intends to decrease [inequality]

Of course, there is very little discussion on whether said policies do actually end up decreasing inequality; much like how the Great Society "War On Poverty" arguably increased poverty.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note the contrast between that and the athletic department, where schools are absolutely delighted to get a kid with an aptitude for sport, and push him hard to achieve.

I think the big difference here is that it doesn't really matter if someone isn't athletic. A school can have 10 kids for an amazing basketball team and 990 that are terrible at basketball and it doesn't affect anything, but if you have 10 geniuses and 990 kids that can't read then it's a huge negative for society

You don’t need to make that trade off.

I also don’t think a world where 10 geniuses go untapped in any context is a positive. The reason so many people can read in the first place is that a small number of geniuses created the prerequisite understanding to shape the modern world. Everyone put in massive amounts of work to achieve all we have achieved, but the key ingredients were a small number of people spearheading foundational ideas. People underestimate the impact of a very small number of people on the massive quality of life benefits we enjoy.

You can’t create genius. The most you can do is create the optimal conditions for the geniuses to take advantage of/manifest and push themselves to that level. Highly intelligent and creative people that make breakthroughs often come from unpredictable backgrounds. In order for them to thrive, you need to provide as many open doors where competency and demonstrable ability is the only prerequisite for entry.

This idea that spending on students correlates with performance is I think entirely wrong and a consequence of the limited metrics we have and attempts to raise money for education.

Education could be WAY cheaper and WAY more effective if we had the proper cultural understanding of what it should provide, and were wise enough to differentiate the needs of different areas. Many areas where reading comprehension is garbage are really in need of like a secondary non-dysfunctional family and job opportunities that are relatively high status/relatively high paying even if you aren’t that smart and just work hard/learn basic skills. If people were sorted into groups based on what their needs were, you could create and advertise doors the smart kids would walk through, and keep it open to anyone who puts in the work regardless of where they’re at, while also serving the needs of people who don’t care about school and are cheaper to bring to baseline if you do it right and don’t force people struggling for basic reading comprehension to be educated by people with a masters degree.

Things are currently falling apart because we’re not willing to admit that people have different needs and abilities and have created extravagantly expensive metrics and interventions to pretend we can equalize all outcome with enough resources. We can’t.

I think we can in fact create better outcomes for everyone, but we have to admit that everyone is different. You can’t have a one size fits all pipeline. Especially if you don’t want to demoralize like 90% of the people in the country that can’t get to the top of that particular giant leaderboard. The internet exacerbates this, and has destroyed borders in which someone who might have otherwise had relatively high status in a particular easily achievable niche accessible to them is now seeing all the people miles beyond them.

The way in which the upper classes currently pity people who don’t have high academic achievement and want to equalize experience in the same pipeline they benefitted from sounds good superficially, but it’s really toxic when you think about it. It assumes people need to have the kind of success that those who’ve done well in that academic pipeline have had in order to be treated with respect.

I think all of this could be fixed with one relatively simple guiding principle: keep metrics in a voluntary, competitive school system for those who have the aptitude and desire to pursue advanced study. Remove most metrics and bureaucracy from a base, mandatory public education much more about civics, basic skills, and introducing people to career paths relevant to their particular local area. I think that principle would ultimately lead to MORE people getting benefits from a traditional pipeline than do currently, free teachers to let the needs of the students actually direct how class time gets spent, and require way less administrative overhead.

EDIT: I rambled way too much here. The current state of education in the US drives me crazy.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, the step has to come from somewhere.

Well, it sure didn’t come from the tall guy’s legs.

In the end, the "step" (as a metaphor for production) comes from those who produce more to those who produce less, whether due to differences in ability, desire, or circumstance. It's redistribution. And it's entirely fair for you to argue that such redistribution is just, fair, or beneficial for society as a whole, but someone had to work for that step.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can give a short person a step more easily..." Once you get into the territory of cognitive abilities, it is the other way round. Making a dumb person smart is nigh impossible, while you can dull a bright intellect with all sorts of external interventions (various medications or drugs come to mind).

Are people asking for that? I’ve never heard anybody ask for that. What I have heard people with mental disabilities ask for is accommodations. Don’t put someone who gets panic attacks on call. Let people take medications that helps them without stigmatizing it. Don't mock someone with Tourette’s syndrome when they have a vocal tick. Provide plenty of pto to those with chronic migraines. Small boxes like those help m…

That's why some people want to cancel advanced math classes:

https://nypost.com/2021/06/08/parents-panic-as-top-nyc-schoo...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/06/04/californ...

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the big difference here is that it doesn't really matter if someone isn't athletic. A school can have 10 kids for an amazing basketball team and 990 that are terrible at basketball and it doesn't affect anything, but if you have 10 geniuses and 990 kids that can't read then it's a huge negative for society

Given the test-driven nature of modern education in the US, having 1000 kids that can just read at grade level is better than having 985 kids at grade level, 5 below, and 10 above. Any resources spent on the latter would be better spent on the 5 that are below grade level.

How can you determine if the students learned anything without testing?

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art classes seem the same, art and music teachers always seem eager to give special attention to kids who do much better than their peers.

Art and music programs are being cut to free up funding to ensure all the kids pass the standardized tests so the school doesn't lose NCLB funding.

American public schools are generously funded.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/238733/expenditure-on-ed...

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#239
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Vonnegut, to his credit, died long before he would have had to hear someone accuse him of writing a short story about “wokeism.” The story is about envy. Vonnegut said as much whenever he was asked about it: it’s directly inspired by his own feelings of creative inadequacy. Shoehorning it into some execrable 2022 political statement is embarrassing.

I always read the story as a warning against forced collectivism. Specifically, forcing people to act against what they believe are their own individual interests, and instead sacrifice those interests in order to advance the goals of the wider society.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#240
post #203
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this condescension is warranted for two reasons. Vonnegut operated this satire clearly within American cultural parameters and the dichotomy, though one-dimensional, is linked to many different foundational ideas in various cultures all across the world.

Alright, so I'm guessing when people have to give up personal freedom for collective values, it's called ‘leftist’, right? Like, freedom of personal expression and freedom over one's own body—so men are forbidden from growing out long hair and decorating themselves with trinkets, women have to look ‘womanly’ and to assume traditional matronly roles, homosexuality is outlaw, recreational drugs are criminal as damaging…

I understand this criticism but I am not sure what you are posting it in response to or what arguments you are assigning to the discussion. My point is simply that the story focuses on an aspect of life of some emotional and philosophical significance and does what it sets out to do fairly well. It's not attempting to critique social norms as they precisely are but just the general concept of celebrating hierarchy vs. attempting to smooth it over.
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