Harrison Bergeron (1961) • Hacker News Board

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#51

Post by ren_engineer » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 2:51 PM UTC

StrictDabbler wrote: post #31

egypturnash wrote: post #21

Captive to our smartphones, distracted constantly by an endless succession of oh-so-important notifications for trivial things. Who in modern life does not feel a little like Harrison Bergeron with his federally-mandated thought-train-interrupting earpiece? And who among us cannot sympathize with Albert Brock, The Murderer? https://www.readkong.com/page/the-murderer-by-ray-bradbury-8...

It is baffling that Bradbury was able to write The Murderer in 1953. The transistor was invented in 1947 and the first fully transistorized radio wasn't available until a year after Bradbury published this, but he got all the way through predicting ringtones, smartwatches, housing automation, GPS digital dispatch/gig economy jobs, and smarmy digital assistants in the span of a single story. I am not aware of a more p…

he basically just worked from first principles of human nature and took it to the logical conclusion

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#52

Post by viridian » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

bitshiftfaced wrote: post #16

superb-owl wrote: post #8

This story is typically seen as a critique of socialism, but it's more likely that Vonnegut intended it as a critique of critiques of socialism [1]. Vonnegut himself was a socialist [2], and the absurdist tone of the story reinforces this idea. [1] https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/197545/03882696bf... [2] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/04/kurt-vonneguts-socialism-fr...

Unless I'm mistaken, socialism has to do with wealth, not talent, intelligence, and good-looks.

Moreover, Marx's famous slogan summarizing socialism was "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".

Harrison Bergeron is clearly set in a world where "From each" is not taken based on the productive skill of the each, but rather the skill of the each is brought near to the lowest of the whole. To each, less obviously is also flawed in this world. Rather than to the man's needs, each is given such that he is rendered equal with the whole.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#53

Post by criddell » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 2:58 PM UTC

aasasd wrote: post #35

Bakary wrote: post #12

It's not clear to me if the story is supposed to be a second degree satire of left-leaning doctrine or a third degree satire of right-leaning fantasies. No matter its goal, the story hits a raw nerve. The mix of emotions over inequality, natural superiority, and its implications one way or the other is one of the strongest cocktails, I feel.

It's always fun seeing USians trying to shoehorn every variation of human behavior into the one-dimensional classification. (Seeing other Westerners confusedly borrow the same dichotomy is also entertaining, as it often fits poorly to them and they surely should know better.)

Is this a criticism of Vonnegut?

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#54

Post by pydry » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #46

geysersam wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

This is probably a vain attempt by management to put a shine on a cost cutting exercise.

There is a poisonous ideology at work in the background but ultimately defunding schools comes from a desire for more inequality, not less.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#55

Post by Dracophoenix » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:00 PM UTC

geysersam wrote: post #40

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #4

This story had an amazing effect on me as a child and before it begins, yes I have a disability (though a so called invisible disability - I have type 1 diabetes and epilepsy). It isn't that we should turn a blind eye to the disabled, as many use it as a parable for. Many disabled do need extra help, but that help comes in the form of lifting up, not pushing down those who are able. The able should be encouraged, in…

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

Not always.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

People are fickle in their adulation.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#56

Post by ep103 » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:02 PM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #48

ep103 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This story was part of a collection of literature that came out shortly after it became irrefutably understood on the left, that the USSR had failed and become a totalitarian state. Early on in USSR's history most of the socialistically leaning world was hopeful that the USSR might still be, to some degree, working out as hoped. It was extremely hard to get unbiased reporting about what was actually happening within…

> most of the socialistically leaning world was hopeful that the USSR might still be, to some degree, working out as hoped. I have to wonder what you mean by "most". Because as early as 1921 the Bolsheviks were supressing anarcho-communists in Ukraine, purging former Mensheviks, putting the SRs on trial and seizing food from starving peasants. All of which was highly contentious and written about combatively in anarc…

Perhaps the word most was too loose, but yes, I understand the history. I also understand that what reporting that came out of Russia was mixed, and heavily propagandized by both sides, so if you were living through it, and were in the Western world, it was hard to know for certain exactly what was and was not true, and what the real causes and effects of what was going on were, until years later. Historically, the breaking point for many in the West to give up on the USSR as a clearly totalitarian state, for which excuses could no longer justify their actions, was the suppression of Hungarian revolution.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#57

Post by bfors » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

aasasd wrote: post #35

Bakary wrote: post #12

It's not clear to me if the story is supposed to be a second degree satire of left-leaning doctrine or a third degree satire of right-leaning fantasies. No matter its goal, the story hits a raw nerve. The mix of emotions over inequality, natural superiority, and its implications one way or the other is one of the strongest cocktails, I feel.

It's always fun seeing USians trying to shoehorn every variation of human behavior into the one-dimensional classification. (Seeing other Westerners confusedly borrow the same dichotomy is also entertaining, as it often fits poorly to them and they surely should know better.)

As a USian, it is not fun

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#58

Post by z7 » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

superb-owl wrote: post #8

This story is typically seen as a critique of socialism, but it's more likely that Vonnegut intended it as a critique of critiques of socialism [1]. Vonnegut himself was a socialist [2], and the absurdist tone of the story reinforces this idea. [1] https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/197545/03882696bf... [2] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/04/kurt-vonneguts-socialism-fr...

In literary analysis the author's intention is generally not viewed as the final word on how a story should be interpreted. There's an extensive debate around this question of authorial intent: https://www.britannica.com/art/intentional-fallacy While it's interesting to know what meaning the author might have had in mind, I personally wouldn't view it in a prescriptive sense when evaluating a story.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#59

Post by waterhouse » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:08 PM UTC

llanowarelves wrote: post #5

hcurtiss wrote: post #3

Beauty, and human attraction to beauty, is impossible to overcome. While sometimes informed by culture, attributes like symmetrical faces are desirable across all cultures. And those attributes are often powerfully informed by genetics. Absent absurd handicaps like in the story, people with those attributes will have better lives. Life is not fair. In some ways it’s better that it’s not. Our perception of beauty, and…

Even various animals prefer attractive people. It's pretty crazy

That sounds like an interesting result, but I wonder about how such studies were done. Might it be that attractive people are more likely to have certain types of mannerisms or other traits? Did anyone go as far as making people wear clothing or makeup that made them more or less attractive and then putting them in front of the animals?