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Harrison Bergeron (1961)

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Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#111

Post by MichaelCollins »

jasonhansel wrote: post #106

I've always seen this story, less as a parable about our treatment of the disabled (or the gifted), and more as a lesson about envy. It shows what happens when you try to eliminate envy from society by bringing everyone to the same level, so that nobody has any "unfair" advantages. edit: I think the telling line is: > their faces were masked, so that no one, seeing a free and graceful gesture or a pretty face, would…

This seems similar to a common justification for school uniforms. If everybody is made to dress the same way, we can eliminate the bullying that comes with letting people choose their own fashion. Of course, the bullying continues anyway.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#112

Post by sixo »

aasasd wrote: post #35
Bakary wrote: post #12

It's not clear to me if the story is supposed to be a second degree satire of left-leaning doctrine or a third degree satire of right-leaning fantasies. No matter its goal, the story hits a raw nerve. The mix of emotions over inequality, natural superiority, and its implications one way or the other is one of the strongest cocktails, I feel.

It's always fun seeing USians trying to shoehorn every variation of human behavior into the one-dimensional classification. (Seeing other Westerners confusedly borrow the same dichotomy is also entertaining, as it often fits poorly to them and they surely should know better.)

The words "left" and "right" are flimsy and one-dimensional for this purpose, but the basic dichotomy they're referring to in this context has deep roots in historical thinking: whether it's right for people to have whatever they can get vs what they need— with the choice of moral framework indicating who "deserves" status and advantages; the former being the meritocratic/libertarian/objectivist sense, or the latter the communist/liberal/christian sense. In either case "right" and "left" are poorly matched, but come on, you know what they're talking about.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#113

Post by Bakary »

WFHRenaissance wrote: post #22
Bakary wrote: post #12

It's not clear to me if the story is supposed to be a second degree satire of left-leaning doctrine or a third degree satire of right-leaning fantasies. No matter its goal, the story hits a raw nerve. The mix of emotions over inequality, natural superiority, and its implications one way or the other is one of the strongest cocktails, I feel.

What's a first degree satire look like then?

It can't exist by definition. Or if it can I'm not equipped to visualize it.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#114

Post by dublin »

mikewarot wrote: post #98

I've known that something like this story exists forever, it seems, but upon reading it all I can think about is the woke-ism that seeks to cripple society by making every little non-conformity a problem, and not celebrating differences. It made me really angry... took a moment to wind down. Diana Moon Clampers -- the perfect social justice warrior.

No post body was provided.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#115

Post by dublin »

tromp wrote: post #103

> like something the cat drug in TIL that drug is a valid alternative to dragged. In fact about as common according to #google hits.

Google hits reflect popular usage, not proper usage. In many cases (like this one, and the even weirder "snuck") there is a big difference between those two...

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#116

Post by Bakary »

aasasd wrote: post #35
Bakary wrote: post #12

It's not clear to me if the story is supposed to be a second degree satire of left-leaning doctrine or a third degree satire of right-leaning fantasies. No matter its goal, the story hits a raw nerve. The mix of emotions over inequality, natural superiority, and its implications one way or the other is one of the strongest cocktails, I feel.

It's always fun seeing USians trying to shoehorn every variation of human behavior into the one-dimensional classification. (Seeing other Westerners confusedly borrow the same dichotomy is also entertaining, as it often fits poorly to them and they surely should know better.)

I don't think this condescension is warranted for two reasons. Vonnegut operated this satire clearly within American cultural parameters and the dichotomy, though one-dimensional, is linked to many different foundational ideas in various cultures all across the world.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#117

Post by MichaelCollins »

josephcsible wrote: post #46
geysersam wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

In my highschool there were honors courses, but no AP courses. The school district wanted to replace honor courses with AP courses so that students might earn course credits for college. However the school district was in a working class town were most adults did not have college educations. The introduction of AP courses was fiercely opposed by many of these people, ostensibly because they didn't think it would be fair that taxpayers would have to pay for college credits, when they themselves never went to college.

Crab bucket mentality. It's real.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#118

Post by virissimo »

Pxtl wrote: post #83
slowmovintarget wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't it be both at the same time? Vonnegut was both a great thinker and a great writer (the former is typically a precondition for the latter).

Vonnegut was brilliant, but I never found his writing subtle. He generally was pretty straightforward about things. imho, Harrison Bergeron should be taken at face value as his indictment against holding back the gifted among us. Remember that his exemplars aren't great Randian industrialists, but like... dancers. Artists. Quietly intelligent men like himself. Vonnegut isn't saying "the strong should triumph and stan…

You contrast Rand's heroes with those of Vonnegut as if they are all CEO-types, but they also include sculptors, architects, engineers, composers, and philosophy professors. IMO, Rand and Vonnegut are much more similar than their fans would like to admit.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#119

Post by MajimasEyepatch »

aasasd wrote: post #35
Bakary wrote: post #12

It's not clear to me if the story is supposed to be a second degree satire of left-leaning doctrine or a third degree satire of right-leaning fantasies. No matter its goal, the story hits a raw nerve. The mix of emotions over inequality, natural superiority, and its implications one way or the other is one of the strongest cocktails, I feel.

It's always fun seeing USians trying to shoehorn every variation of human behavior into the one-dimensional classification. (Seeing other Westerners confusedly borrow the same dichotomy is also entertaining, as it often fits poorly to them and they surely should know better.)

> USians

We have a word for this in English: Americans.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#120

Post by rcktmrtn »

jasonhansel wrote: post #106

I've always seen this story, less as a parable about our treatment of the disabled (or the gifted), and more as a lesson about envy. It shows what happens when you try to eliminate envy from society by bringing everyone to the same level, so that nobody has any "unfair" advantages. edit: I think the telling line is: > their faces were masked, so that no one, seeing a free and graceful gesture or a pretty face, would…

I agree, especially considering the version of the story Vonnegut previous told in Sirens of Titan [1]. In that story (written earlier), the people are shown willingly embracing handicaps out of love. Definitely makes an interesting contrast. My theory is that he wrote the later story (Bergeron) is to clarify the distinction you mention. Loving people will want to "handicap" themselves for the sake of solidarity, but you can't turn it around the other way.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron#Parallels_wi...

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