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Harrison Bergeron (1961)

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Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#31

Post by StrictDabbler »

egypturnash wrote: post #21

Captive to our smartphones, distracted constantly by an endless succession of oh-so-important notifications for trivial things. Who in modern life does not feel a little like Harrison Bergeron with his federally-mandated thought-train-interrupting earpiece? And who among us cannot sympathize with Albert Brock, The Murderer? https://www.readkong.com/page/the-murderer-by-ray-bradbury-8...

It is baffling that Bradbury was able to write The Murderer in 1953.

The transistor was invented in 1947 and the first fully transistorized radio wasn't available until a year after Bradbury published this, but he got all the way through predicting ringtones, smartwatches, housing automation, GPS digital dispatch/gig economy jobs, and smarmy digital assistants in the span of a single story.

I am not aware of a more prescient bit of science fiction. Bradbury knew how people worked and what we'd try to make.

If you haven't read The Murderer, please do so.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#33

Post by slowmovintarget »

Bakary wrote: post #12

It's not clear to me if the story is supposed to be a second degree satire of left-leaning doctrine or a third degree satire of right-leaning fantasies. No matter its goal, the story hits a raw nerve. The mix of emotions over inequality, natural superiority, and its implications one way or the other is one of the strongest cocktails, I feel.

Why can't it be both at the same time? Vonnegut was both a great thinker and a great writer (the former is typically a precondition for the latter).

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#34

Post by rufus_foreman »

superb-owl wrote: post #8

This story is typically seen as a critique of socialism, but it's more likely that Vonnegut intended it as a critique of critiques of socialism [1]. Vonnegut himself was a socialist [2], and the absurdist tone of the story reinforces this idea. [1] https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/197545/03882696bf... [2] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/04/kurt-vonneguts-socialism-fr...

"I can't be sure, but there is a possibility that my story "Harrison Bergeron" is about the envy and self-pity I felt in an over-achievers' high school in Indianapolis quite a while ago now. Some people never tame those emotions. John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald and Mark David Chapman come to mind. "Handicapper Generals," if you like."

- Vonnegut

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#35

Post by aasasd »

Bakary wrote: post #12

It's not clear to me if the story is supposed to be a second degree satire of left-leaning doctrine or a third degree satire of right-leaning fantasies. No matter its goal, the story hits a raw nerve. The mix of emotions over inequality, natural superiority, and its implications one way or the other is one of the strongest cocktails, I feel.

It's always fun seeing USians trying to shoehorn every variation of human behavior into the one-dimensional classification.

(Seeing other Westerners confusedly borrow the same dichotomy is also entertaining, as it often fits poorly to them and they surely should know better.)

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#36

Post by golemotron »

mistrial9 wrote: post #15
superb-owl wrote: post #8

This story is typically seen as a critique of socialism, but it's more likely that Vonnegut intended it as a critique of critiques of socialism [1]. Vonnegut himself was a socialist [2], and the absurdist tone of the story reinforces this idea. [1] https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/197545/03882696bf... [2] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/04/kurt-vonneguts-socialism-fr...

thanks so much for reducing this emotional work of art to a political check box?

We're talking about a guy who reduced all story telling to a set of 8 graphs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP3c1h8v2ZQ

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#38

Post by travisgriggs »

This is one of my favorite stories ever. I have never seen it as particularly anti socialism per se. Through most of KVs parables, there is a satire of what happens when we use forced constraint and compulsion to achieve a desired behavior. History has examples of how things go pear shaped when religious/right movements force people to behave a certain way, from the crusades to the current arguments about women’s rights in both the US and Iran at the moment. I’ve always seen KV’s tales as a warning to lefter leaning ideologies, that if you use the same compulsory means to achieve your left leaning goals, you’ll end up with equally wonky results as using the same means to achieve right leaning goals. You can’t _make_ people good. The people of a society have to choose to be good (for whatever arbitrary measure of morality your society has created).

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#39

Post by slowmovintarget »

cainxinth wrote: post #13
hcurtiss wrote: post #3

Beauty, and human attraction to beauty, is impossible to overcome. While sometimes informed by culture, attributes like symmetrical faces are desirable across all cultures. And those attributes are often powerfully informed by genetics. Absent absurd handicaps like in the story, people with those attributes will have better lives. Life is not fair. In some ways it’s better that it’s not. Our perception of beauty, and…

> Life is not fair. In some ways it’s better that it’s not. Our perception of beauty, and marveling in its wonder, is something that makes us uniquely human. I don't know if I buy either of those statements. Taking the second part first, animals probably can perceive 'beauty': https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animal-emotions/2021... And as for the first part, yes, life isn't fair, which is partially why human…

"I'm glad life isn't fair. If it were, it means we deserve everything that happens to us." -- paraphrasing a quote from Babylon 5

Principles are superior to rules, but the best we can do in government is making rules. Best they be few, and of high quality.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#40

Post by geysersam »

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #4

This story had an amazing effect on me as a child and before it begins, yes I have a disability (though a so called invisible disability - I have type 1 diabetes and epilepsy). It isn't that we should turn a blind eye to the disabled, as many use it as a parable for. Many disabled do need extra help, but that help comes in the form of lifting up, not pushing down those who are able. The able should be encouraged, in…

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?
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