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Harrison Bergeron (1961)

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Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#81

Post by tomrod »

mistrial9 wrote: post #15
superb-owl wrote: post #8

This story is typically seen as a critique of socialism, but it's more likely that Vonnegut intended it as a critique of critiques of socialism [1]. Vonnegut himself was a socialist [2], and the absurdist tone of the story reinforces this idea. [1] https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/197545/03882696bf... [2] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/04/kurt-vonneguts-socialism-fr...

thanks so much for reducing this emotional work of art to a political check box?

I admire KV. We must also recognize he lived, that he lived in a certain time, and that some of his writings deal with some of the events and attitudes that existed in a certain time.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#82

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

falcolas wrote: post #78
LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #60

/me thinks reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_selection_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakistocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_men…

Not everything related to learning requires perfect efficiency. Fiction is a fantastic way to take dry principles and make them relatable. Read those wikipedia articles and Harrison Bergeron if you really want to get the most out of those factual articles and fictional story. To put it another way, productivity is not - nor should it be - the milestone by which we evaluate our lives.

That's not what I meant to say. Actually I searched for words, thought about 'informative', 'enlightening', other rephrasing, but been lazy. I like (some) fiction too. But all the discussions about this short story seem to remain fuzzy, coming to no real conclusions, not pointing to the core. Because, hey, fiction, so what? That is detrimental, I think. And because of that, I've put it that way.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#83

Post by Pxtl »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #33
Bakary wrote: post #12

It's not clear to me if the story is supposed to be a second degree satire of left-leaning doctrine or a third degree satire of right-leaning fantasies. No matter its goal, the story hits a raw nerve. The mix of emotions over inequality, natural superiority, and its implications one way or the other is one of the strongest cocktails, I feel.

Why can't it be both at the same time? Vonnegut was both a great thinker and a great writer (the former is typically a precondition for the latter).

Vonnegut was brilliant, but I never found his writing subtle. He generally was pretty straightforward about things. imho, Harrison Bergeron should be taken at face value as his indictment against holding back the gifted among us.

Remember that his exemplars aren't great Randian industrialists, but like... dancers. Artists. Quietly intelligent men like himself. Vonnegut isn't saying "the strong should triumph and stand on the backs of their lessers and dominate the world" but rather just "let great and beautiful things be great and beautiful".

And there's the subtle misogyny that our hero is smart and his wife is a bit dense and happily accepts their dystopia. I love Vonnegut, but that fits with his writing through and through. Vonnegut's women generally... aren't great.

Yes, letting greatness be victorious has kind of a conservative bent because it also implies letting the losers lose, which runs runs against progressive ideals that Vonnegut seems to hold of making sure everyone is taken care of. I think Vonnegut was the kind of man who could hold both those thoughts in his head at the same time.

We contain multitudes.

In general, it's a cute story within Vonnegut's body of work, but anybody who fixates on this one piece... it's kind of a red flag of "I would do great and awesome things if only the bleeding heart liberals stopped holding me back!"

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#84

Post by aasasd »

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #60

/me thinks reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_selection_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakistocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_men…

Yes, the best way to deal with social knowledge is to memorize the list of biases and sociopolitical behaviors from Wikipedia, and to recite the fitting ones when anything relevant comes up.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#85

Post by notenoughbeans »

As someone that struggled with envy as a kid, this story spoke to me. It made me think twice about trying to tear people down that I thought were hogging the spotlight.

Although, I'm sure there were people in my class that identified with Harrison and thought that everyone else was holding them back.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#86

Post by Pxtl »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #34
superb-owl wrote: post #8

This story is typically seen as a critique of socialism, but it's more likely that Vonnegut intended it as a critique of critiques of socialism [1]. Vonnegut himself was a socialist [2], and the absurdist tone of the story reinforces this idea. [1] https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/197545/03882696bf... [2] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/04/kurt-vonneguts-socialism-fr...

"I can't be sure, but there is a possibility that my story "Harrison Bergeron" is about the envy and self-pity I felt in an over-achievers' high school in Indianapolis quite a while ago now. Some people never tame those emotions. John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald and Mark David Chapman come to mind. "Handicapper Generals," if you like." - Vonnegut

That fits. It sounds like it's not the high-minded anticommunist social criticism that conservatives want it to be, but more of just grousing about the tall-poppy problem of high-school that I think most gen-X-and-older nerds would be more than familiar with.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#87

Post by Ericson2314 »

swyx wrote: post #6

i dont know Vonnegut's politics but i have always wondered if this story was secretly a fairytale for the right-leaning. it paints wanting equality as intensely evil, holding back the best of humanity. which, yes, true in communist regimes, but you see echoes in some less well considered laws and policies in modern life. i am afraid to like, or even publicly discuss, the story because of what it might say about me.

Yeah it reminds me of the CIA funding Jackson Pollock and the Iowa Writer's Workshop.

Vonnegut probably intended more shades of meaning, but it is instead a ham-fisted manifesto for liberals (in the more original, globally center-right sense) like Scott Aaronson whose entire worldview is rooted in loving accelerated schooling.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#88

Post by greenie_beans »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #48
ep103 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This story was part of a collection of literature that came out shortly after it became irrefutably understood on the left, that the USSR had failed and become a totalitarian state. Early on in USSR's history most of the socialistically leaning world was hopeful that the USSR might still be, to some degree, working out as hoped. It was extremely hard to get unbiased reporting about what was actually happening within…

> most of the socialistically leaning world was hopeful that the USSR might still be, to some degree, working out as hoped. I have to wonder what you mean by "most". Because as early as 1921 the Bolsheviks were supressing anarcho-communists in Ukraine, purging former Mensheviks, putting the SRs on trial and seizing food from starving peasants. All of which was highly contentious and written about combatively in anarc…

you got any books to recommend learning about all that?

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#90

Post by MichaelCollins »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #48
ep103 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This story was part of a collection of literature that came out shortly after it became irrefutably understood on the left, that the USSR had failed and become a totalitarian state. Early on in USSR's history most of the socialistically leaning world was hopeful that the USSR might still be, to some degree, working out as hoped. It was extremely hard to get unbiased reporting about what was actually happening within…

> most of the socialistically leaning world was hopeful that the USSR might still be, to some degree, working out as hoped. I have to wonder what you mean by "most". Because as early as 1921 the Bolsheviks were supressing anarcho-communists in Ukraine, purging former Mensheviks, putting the SRs on trial and seizing food from starving peasants. All of which was highly contentious and written about combatively in anarc…

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. As hard as it may be to comprehend, there are still some people who think the various atrocities perpetrated by the USSR were justified by the greater good, or were merely western exaggerations.

I don't think they're intrinsically bad people for this, despite the monstrous nature of the USSR. A few of my friends believe as I say. In most regards they have a sensible attitude towards morality and ethics, but when it comes to the USSR specifically they have psychological blinders on. They're so infatuated with the idea of the USSR, that they can't accept the reality. And this isn't a phenomena that is special to the USSR of course, they are similar to many Americans I know who cannot accept criticisms of America in a similar way. Generally, people may become so infatuated with the idea or principle of a thing that they cannot accept reality when it contradicts their idea.

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