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Harrison Bergeron (1961)

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Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

Not always. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome People are fickle in their adulation.

Oh. Hi! :-) 8minutes faster U!

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

Equity, not equality. Big difference in modern parlance.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#64
post #26

My hot take is that this story is highly overrated. It’s boring, poorly written, and lacks nuance. The reason people remember it fondly is (1) everyone loves Vonnegut because he’s funny, so they don’t want to criticize it and (2) everyone read this story in middle school and are blinded by nostalgia.

I think it has a special place in the hearts of people who are especially affected by interruptions, more because of what is concretely inflicted on the title character than because of the abstract argument about equality and inequality. There was no language for talking about being sensitive to interruptions back then, and there isn't really now unless you have some kind of diagnosis. My wife does not understand tha…

I always thought that the interruption theme was not at all the point of the story, but simply the most disturbing handicap from the perspective of an author.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#65

Captive to our smartphones, distracted constantly by an endless succession of oh-so-important notifications for trivial things. Who in modern life does not feel a little like Harrison Bergeron with his federally-mandated thought-train-interrupting earpiece? And who among us cannot sympathize with Albert Brock, The Murderer? https://www.readkong.com/page/the-murderer-by-ray-bradbury-8...

It is baffling that Bradbury was able to write The Murderer in 1953. The transistor was invented in 1947 and the first fully transistorized radio wasn't available until a year after Bradbury published this, but he got all the way through predicting ringtones, smartwatches, housing automation, GPS digital dispatch/gig economy jobs, and smarmy digital assistants in the span of a single story. I am not aware of a more p…

Ever read "The Machine Stops" by EM Forster? Over 100 years old, and it's got Facebook style interactions!

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

Like the sibling poster said this is probably a cost cutting measure. However, I really hate the dichotomy of “special ed” vs “gifted/advanced” that permeates education. Every student has special educational needs, and by that I mean not just academics. I excelled in school with no real effort and never got the support I needed in other areas because, clearly, I was doing great. I now have a 2e kid that goes to a Waldorf type school and gets like zero academic assistance (not really needed) but a ton of social/emotional support he needs. Eventually he’ll be in some more mainstream school where he can take advanced courses. I have a girl with ADHD and an 88 IQ - she just squirrels out as soon as she sees a problem that she cannot answer without some thought. She is sharp as a tack and does well in school because she has had to learn good study habits, but her support comes in the form of special ed to help give her a distraction-free environment in which to study.

I do think there is a push not to equalize everyone but to actually address individual needs, and those may draw resources from areas like advanced courses. Boredom in school for bright kids can definitely be a problem but I’m not sure it’s the end of the world. The kids who want to excel generally will, and can often just be advanced a grade or two. The rigid structure of class groupings by age is anachronistic and maybe like 50% appropriate. There are better ways to structure education.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#67
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

This is probably a vain attempt by management to put a shine on a cost cutting exercise. There is a poisonous ideology at work in the background but ultimately defunding schools comes from a desire for more inequality, not less.

Who do you mean by management, here?

The superintendent, the school board, the city council or the voters?

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#68

This story is typically seen as a critique of socialism, but it's more likely that Vonnegut intended it as a critique of critiques of socialism [1]. Vonnegut himself was a socialist [2], and the absurdist tone of the story reinforces this idea. [1] https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/197545/03882696bf... [2] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/04/kurt-vonneguts-socialism-fr...

Socialism provides a safety net at the bottom end of the social achievement scale so that you don't end up with large homeless populations living under bridges.

The notion that socialism cuts off the heads of over-achievers to enforce a dull sameness on society is basically a straw man argument that doesn't correlate at all with how socialist governance works in practice. Some will point to higher taxes on billionaires as a counterexample, but it's equally clear that the wealthiest rely heavily on things like roads, ports, etc. (to get goods from one place to another), and since without that infrastructure they'd have little opportunity to accumulate wealth, higher taxes on that wealth are appropriate.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#69

/me thinks reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_selection_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakistocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_men…

i think this: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-c...

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#70
post #37

Quoted post unavailable.

No. Ableism (not sure why the quotes, comes off as a little sarcastic) is expecting and demeaning individuals--either purposefully or implicitly due to environmental design--for not achieving some arbitrary standard of “normal”. No one advocating for better treatment of people is suggesting a Bergeron-esque reality where those who are performing must be handicapped for equality. It is more about making social systems and attitudes welcoming for those who were traditionally seen as worthless (especially in a system that valued productive work above the health of the individual). Making room for others doesn't mean dragging others down, you know?
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