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Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

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Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#31
post #24
post #22

No, people should not be mean or rude to developers - or anyone really. However, Mozilla is getting paid for the software. Just because it is open source, does not mean that people don't get paid. Mozilla takes money for their software in the form of donations. So some users are actually paying directly to Mozilla. Also, Mozilla makes most of its money by selling private information to Google (searches etc). Users ar…

I'm not even sure how to respond to the "selling private information to Google" bit. If you think choosing a default search engine equates to selling private information I guess that's cool. I don't agree, and I don't think many (or any) people who work on Mozilla do, and we're generally a pretty privacy concerned group. The Mozilla Corporation pays taxes on its profits (including its business deals with Google) like…

hi,

my main point over all is that both parties should be nice, and improve their communication to make the community a nicer place. It's not just the users that are 'dicks', and they should stop being 'dicks'. Other things can be done to make the community nicer on both sides.

Concerning the private searches part that you take issue with... My main point was that Mozilla gets money from the users indirectly (and directly), so the argument that users are not paying so can not expect anything is silly.

Mozilla also gets money from Google "for click-throughs on ads placed on the ensuing search results pages", not just the default search engine bit.

You're right that people can argue over what the search arrangement with Google should be called. The private searches which people type into Firefox go to Google. Google pays money to Mozilla for this. It reminds me of when people try to work around liquor laws by making up some 'work around'. For example people sell tickets which can then be used to buy alcohol... and because you're not directly selling people the alcohol people think that is ok. But really, the laws still say you can't do that clever little ruse. Now, people don't have to agree on this, but I'm pretty sure many people would think of it as their information being sold to a corporation if they knew that arrangement was in place. I doubt most users of Firefox realise that google pays mozilla for the search arrangement though. We don't need to agree on this, or that the world is flat either, but I think it is the case.

To your second issue you raised, "The Mozilla Corporation (abbreviated MoCo) is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation". -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation The Mozilla Foundation is a non profit, as such gets special treatment. The government, and tax payers give non profits a break because they are contributing something good to the community - like all the good stuff Mozilla does.

cheers,

[edit: removed thing about google getting sent url bar entries in ff]

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#32

...or try not to get into the situation where your financial/employment status is in the hands of volunteers. (Don't use OS for important things that require diligent support)

The product is open source--your "financial/employment" status is never out of your control. The worst case is that you have to fix a bug yourself or pay somebody else to do it. In fact, if you end up hiring somebody else to do it, you have a lot more control over how and when it gets done. Also, there is a good chance somebody else wants the same issue resolved, and would contribute the solution back to the project, so you might not have to do anything at all.

On the other hand, with a proprietary product, you have no control over the software; if there is a bug you're left hoping the company providing the program is willing to work on it. Also, if the company goes bankrupt or makes decisions you don't agree with you're just out of luck.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#33

I have found that most people don't even realize they're being dicks when submitting bug reports or feature suggestions for OSS. I recent wrote an article about this phenomenon and what to do about it. [1] For example, it can be demeaning to OSS developers who have spent much of their time (often unpaid) to build this software for you to use, when you open your bug report with the attitude that it must be broken simp…

EDIT: Oops, forgot the footnote.

[1] http://www.alfajango.com/blog/communicating-with-engineers-a...

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#34
post #26
post #22

No, people should not be mean or rude to developers - or anyone really. However, Mozilla is getting paid for the software. Just because it is open source, does not mean that people don't get paid. Mozilla takes money for their software in the form of donations. So some users are actually paying directly to Mozilla. Also, Mozilla makes most of its money by selling private information to Google (searches etc). Users ar…

But how do you square your views with OSS projects that aren't Mozilla? How about those that truly are volunteer OSS projects that the developers don't get paid for? I contribute to a large, popular OSS project, and much of the blog post rings true for me. Full disclosure: I am not an employee of Mozilla Corporation.

Some communities do better than others at making it a nice environment for all involved.

For example, post a question on some mailing lists and you'll get flamed or told RTFM noob stfu. On other projects everyone is nice, happy and it's all warm hugs.

If the developers or other community members are getting abused, that is not on. There's really no excuse. However, having developers call their users 'dicks' is also something that should not happen.

There's things that communities can do to make them develop nicer for everyone involved. Community development is a massive topic, but basically people need to work on making the communities nicer. The basics like: managing peoples expectations, being transparent, respecting the time people put into things can go a long way towards making a better environment.

I think bug trackers like Bugzilla don't do an awesome job from the perspective of the bug reporter. Once they report a bug, they have an expectation that someone is going to fix their problem. I think that's the wrong way to get people to think about open source projects, and it sets the wrong expectations - which leads to people getting angry, and frustrated. This post, and others from developers and users show to me that Mozilla has a problem which is being caused in part by their bug tracker, or how the bug tracker is used.

Big communities can often turn out bad too. Which is why growing a community may not be the best thing to do. A famous comedian is asked about where he does his experimental comedy - and he answers that he is not telling, because he wants his little club night to stay small. The comedians who run it do it as an artistic thing, and they don't want too many people coming along and spoiling it. So this famous comedian did not want a plug on the radio show by this journalist, because it would grow his community too big.

Some of the nicer open source communities keep commercial things away from the project because that would spoil the fun. The project could probably be better with more commercial involvement, but some projects choose not to have that happen. Mixing commercial and non commercial development is another hard thing that mozilla does. I mean, why are the bug reporters and testers not getting paid, but some developers are? I know the reasons, and am not saying it should be different - just that can cause tensions.

Open source communities are a very important thing to talk about, and to make better. Especially if people are going to be interacting in them so much. We all have a lot to learn and improve on, since we have problems now.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#35
post #31
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even sure how to respond to the "selling private information to Google" bit. If you think choosing a default search engine equates to selling private information I guess that's cool. I don't agree, and I don't think many (or any) people who work on Mozilla do, and we're generally a pretty privacy concerned group. The Mozilla Corporation pays taxes on its profits (including its business deals with Google) like…

hi, my main point over all is that both parties should be nice, and improve their communication to make the community a nicer place. It's not just the users that are 'dicks', and they should stop being 'dicks'. Other things can be done to make the community nicer on both sides. Concerning the private searches part that you take issue with... My main point was that Mozilla gets money from the users indirectly (and dir…

> Google is also told what urls people type in.

You must be thinking of Chrome. In Firefox this is very definitely NOT the case. That's why the url bar and the search field are separate.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#36
post #31
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even sure how to respond to the "selling private information to Google" bit. If you think choosing a default search engine equates to selling private information I guess that's cool. I don't agree, and I don't think many (or any) people who work on Mozilla do, and we're generally a pretty privacy concerned group. The Mozilla Corporation pays taxes on its profits (including its business deals with Google) like…

hi, my main point over all is that both parties should be nice, and improve their communication to make the community a nicer place. It's not just the users that are 'dicks', and they should stop being 'dicks'. Other things can be done to make the community nicer on both sides. Concerning the private searches part that you take issue with... My main point was that Mozilla gets money from the users indirectly (and dir…

Oh, and as regards "special treatment"... what sort? The Mozilla Foundation has very little revenue of its own. All revenue coming via the Mozilla Corporation is handled like any other revenue from any other corporation for tax purposes and the like

Either you're a bit confused about what it means to be a "non profit", or I'd really like to see a clear explanation of what sorts of special treatment you think Mozilla is getting here.

(Disclosure: I too work for the Mozilla Corporation, though I've been contributing to the project for a lot longer than I've been employed.)

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#37

I have found that most people don't even realize they're being dicks when submitting bug reports or feature suggestions for OSS. I recent wrote an article about this phenomenon and what to do about it. [1] For example, it can be demeaning to OSS developers who have spent much of their time (often unpaid) to build this software for you to use, when you open your bug report with the attitude that it must be broken simp…

the attitude that it must be broken simply because it doesn't do what you want it to do

For better or worse, I get snippy when something doesn't work that I was told would work. Like when the included examples don't work or the documentation is wrong. Then I'm not angry because I didn't get the free pony I wanted, I'm angry because you lied to me.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#38
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hi, my main point over all is that both parties should be nice, and improve their communication to make the community a nicer place. It's not just the users that are 'dicks', and they should stop being 'dicks'. Other things can be done to make the community nicer on both sides. Concerning the private searches part that you take issue with... My main point was that Mozilla gets money from the users indirectly (and dir…

Oh, and as regards "special treatment"... what sort? The Mozilla Foundation has very little revenue of its own. All revenue coming via the Mozilla Corporation is handled like any other revenue from any other corporation for tax purposes and the like Either you're a bit confused about what it means to be a "non profit", or I'd really like to see a clear explanation of what sorts of special treatment you think Mozilla…

Here it explains what privileges non profits get: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_organization

Mozilla Foundation owns Mozilla Corporation, and Mozilla Foundation is a non profit. Non profits get special privileges that companies do not get - and that is all I am talking about, I'm not concerned about it.

Mozilla Foundation and Subsidiary declared $61,501,145 Royalties from search in the 2006 Auditors report.

I mention this, to rebut the point that users are not contributing anything to mozilla - therefore they can't expect anything. Disregarding other ways users contribute to mozilla (donations, testing, etc), this is one way everyone is contributing to mozilla foundation (or at least the people who live in countries where mozilla has foundations).

Even if users were not paying anything, I still think they have rights in open source communities and should not just be ignored or mistreated just because they don't happen to pay money to license the software.

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#39
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hi, my main point over all is that both parties should be nice, and improve their communication to make the community a nicer place. It's not just the users that are 'dicks', and they should stop being 'dicks'. Other things can be done to make the community nicer on both sides. Concerning the private searches part that you take issue with... My main point was that Mozilla gets money from the users indirectly (and dir…

> Google is also told what urls people type in. You must be thinking of Chrome. In Firefox this is very definitely NOT the case. That's why the url bar and the search field are separate.

yup, thanks. I removed that bit from the post.

If I type "blabla" into the url bar and press enter it still goes to google, even if you change the default search engine to say duck duck go/wikipedia etc.

Also doesn't Firefox send google the url for 'safebrowsing', the anti phishing detection thing?

Re: Hug an OSS Developer or just don't be a dick

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are really strange when it comes to free stuff. A friend of mine decided one day to buy a bunch of donuts and hand them out to some folks waiting in a long line out in the cold. Most people were very thankful or even surprised that someone would do such a thing. A small subset of people complained that he only bought one kind of donut, or complained that he didn't also purchase coffee for them.

Actually, if I remember correctly, some studies have shown that people complain more about free stuff than they do about stuff they paid for. The theory is that act of paying for something makes you invested in it, so you're more likely to identify/sympathize with it.

I remember seeing this as well. Wish I could find the link.
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