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Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

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Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except maybe Canada Canada is generally regarded as a terrible place for startups, unfortunately. The laws are pretty restrictive towards "disruptive" technologies and the government always bends in favour of the existing players.

That's been my impression too. I'm trying to figure out why that is the case. Is it mainly because of laws that make it hard to fire bad employees? Payments such as unemployment benefits, social benefits, etc.? Tax code issues? Or something else entirely?

Lack of exposures mostly.

Also Canadians tend to be less ruthless (I'm not going to debate the right or wrong on this but seeing that the biggest and most successful companies are driven by ruthless people...)

Canada also has a small (but growing) market. There aren't too many big cities and big spenders.

Vancouver, while it's beautiful and nice and all that, the majority businesses tend to revolve around government agencies.

Every little bits definitely taxed startups chance to be successful.

Compare to Silicon Valley where people would almost definitely give try all-things-mobile or web2.0, Vancouverites prefer to hike, bike, enjoy foods.

All in all, Canada is still conservatives when it comes to technology.

Having said that, I was surprised to see big names in Computing technology born and bred in Canada but all moved and made it big in US. Kernighan, Gosling, Aho, Rob Pike, Rasmus Lerdorf, Kenneth Iverson, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Canadian_computer_scie...

Too bad... Just too bad...

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#23
In several of the comments, people have asked why entrepreneurs might want to leave the USA, given the common perception that the USA is a great place to do a business. I'm making this comment in response to those questions as an example of an entrepreneur whose left the USA. My reasons for doing this are obviously going to be different than those who would choose not to, so don't get mad. I'm not trying to persuade you, just explaining.

I was born in the USA, and worked for startups for nearly 2 decades in the USA, but when it came time to do my own startup, I left the USA. There are many reasons for this, and further, when I come back to the USA, I'm reminded of some of the nice things we've given up.

The biggest reason we left is that the cost of living is high in the west coast of the USA, compared to most of the rest of the world. If we could travel around the world and actually save money while getting to do something we've always enjoyed doing, then that's great. Going to europe is more expensive than the USA, but not that much, well worth it. In fact, berlin was such cool city, that if germans were more supportive of the idea that we might want to stay there for an extended period we'd be working on residency permits.

But behind this reason is another one- The USA is going in the wrong direction. Pick whatever examples work best for you- SOPA, domain seizures, an increasingly baroque tax code, increasing regulations all over that, even though they don't yet effect small businesses much, would be a burden if we are at all successful, even dealing with the TSA when I want to fly, and the thought that my tax money is being used to kill afghani, iraqi, pakistani and other children.

When I was young, I was brought up to believe that the USA was great because it believed in human rights. That the bill of rights protected us from an out of control government. Over the years, I've seen those rights be violated, one by one, and the supreme court claim that it was "legal" in their rulings. I've come to believe that there is no effective restraint on the US government by the legal system, and I've been shocked to see, how rapidly these transgressions are accelerating.

For instance, I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that at ever airport adults and children have a choice between being photographed nude by government agents and being molested by same. This is a violation of state laws in probably all 50 states, yet no charges have been filed. Worse, while many americans protest, there has been no action. I take this as evidence that americans will put up with any rights violations. Many of them will get mad, but they have no method to resolve the situation. While Obama was president when these scanners were put in, only a couple of the people wanting to run against him want them out. And while Bush was president when the TSA was created and the PATRIOT act was passed, Obama has expanded both. Despite the majority of people opposing various bits of legislation (like the bank bailouts) they still get passed. So, I see no way for things to turn around until things get bad enough to make people really unformfortable.

Also, I've studied economics and been watching the economic situation. I've come to understand the real nature of the federal reserve and the fiat currency of the USA. The USA benefited greatly from Bretton Woods alls these decades, but a side effect of that is that the inflation that has existed in the dollar supply has been exported to other countries, giving americans an artificially better standard of living. This in itself is not bad, but it and our debtor economy are dependent on that money being kept out of the system by being locked up in vaults and pocketbooks and accounts of foreigners who want it because they think the dollar is a strong currency. Given the fact that our economy is faltering, but more importantly our government is spending like crazy (obama is worse than bush who was worse than clinton who was worse than bush who was worse than the very bad reagan who was worse than carter, it just goes on...) eventually they are going to be inflating so fast that the dollar loses its reserve status, and at that point, it won't matter that the US government is inflating because people will start dumping their dollars. We'll start seeing the effect of all those previous years inflation that was exported realized in the dollars in a rather short time. This is not a black swan event, it happens regularly, just not often enough that people remember its possible. But because of bretton woods, it will be much worse for the usa than, say, argentina.

Its pretty much impossible to do business in the USA and not be tied up in the dollar economy.

Meanwhile, because I have been a traveller, I've been to other countries and seen how in some ways at least many of them are better than the USA. Chile for instance, has a culture that is more instinctively capitalist. New Zealand, while its more socialist on the surface has a much less corrupt government. So the question becomes, of all these countries, which provides the best protections of the rights I care most about and is also going in the right direction? I've not yet decided, I'm still traveling.

There's a lot to commend the USA. One surprising thing is how convenient having amazon and walmart is. Especially compared to europe. You can just order anything you want from amazon or go to a walmart and buy most anything you want. In europe, the retail stores are generally very tiny, and with the exception of an astounding chain of 3 story electronics shops we found in berlin, its often very hard to find obscure things. And when you do, of course, the prices are often almost doublet the USA due to tariffs and on top of that you've got %20 VAT.

One downside of running a startup this way is that traveling involves spending a fair bit of time on the traveling part. This gets in the way of the startup part, and it is also a bit disruptive. Each time we go to the next country we have a bit of time figuring out where the grocery store is, arranging the apartment to suit our needs, etc. We're staying in AirBnB places almost exclusively and AirBnB has totally solved a lot of the hassles of having to find apartments. But we're going to try staying linger- getting permits to stay a year or so in each country.

Finally, its a hell of a lot of fun to run a startup this way.

So, I'm sure most on hacker news disagree with at least something I've said, and this post is by its nature political because it is a questions whose answers, for me, are politically motivated. I'm not looking for a debate. If you disagree with my perspective on any of these things, that's fine, but I took a long time to reach them, and a lot of consideration, and there's really not much point in trying to persuade me (nor am I trying to pursuade you. I'm just answering the question.)

I am up for answering followup questions if anyone's concerned about mechanics etc.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#24
post #2

This is just one anecdote. I don't see a broader trend of entrepreneurs fleeing the U.S. It's true, entrepreneurs are outside-the-box thinkers, so they may do unexpected things. Though the U.S. has plenty of troubles, I don't believe it's any better anywhere else. (Except maybe Canada :-) I'm not from there, though, so I wouldn't know.)

> Except maybe Canada Canada is generally regarded as a terrible place for startups, unfortunately. The laws are pretty restrictive towards "disruptive" technologies and the government always bends in favour of the existing players.

[deleted]

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#25
post #2

This is just one anecdote. I don't see a broader trend of entrepreneurs fleeing the U.S. It's true, entrepreneurs are outside-the-box thinkers, so they may do unexpected things. Though the U.S. has plenty of troubles, I don't believe it's any better anywhere else. (Except maybe Canada :-) I'm not from there, though, so I wouldn't know.)

> Except maybe Canada Canada is generally regarded as a terrible place for startups, unfortunately. The laws are pretty restrictive towards "disruptive" technologies and the government always bends in favour of the existing players.

> Canada is generally regarded as a terrible place for startups, unfortunately. The laws are pretty restrictive towards "disruptive" technologies and the government always bends in favour of the existing players.

What the heck are you talking about? Can you please provide some sources for this? Other than telecom and media I can't think of any space in the tech industry that the government is "restrictive" towards. In fact the Government has amazing programs for tech startups like SR&ED and IRAP, and you have amazing support systems like MaRS and Communitech in Ontario, with analogs in practically every province.

The thing that makes Canada tough for startups is the lack of an established VC ecosystem. This is why you see quite a few bootstrapped Canadian startups, and only a few Canadian startups that go really big. But labour is significantly cheaper than in the US (especially when you factor in free healthcare), labour in Canada often has a more worldwide mix (because of a large immigrant population), you get awesome tax credits and incentives, and quality of life is near the top of the world.

I'm not usually so jingoistic, but this one-off comment was really quite strange.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Back home, I can drive the workforce to do the best practices that I believe without having to have long discussions" But this where you may be missing out on the value of a worker. In this day in age, someone who just cranks out something to a mold or specification is not as valuable to an organization. I'd much rather pay someone 5 times as much if they can think on their feet and not always have to rely on me to…

It's not as bad as you'd think. These best practices are just the foundation, not necessary the long-term solutions. Once you have a set of standard, there's always room for improvement or changes. The biggest problem with N.A. workers is that they can be categorized into 3 types when it comes to "Do Things": - Do as they pleased (cause they think they know it all) - Follow the best practice - Follow the latest and g…

>You kind of need a "Yes-Man" if you're on early stage of startup inventing your own dream (I'm sure this is going to open a can of worm but hey... it's your startup).

Nonsense. You are not smart enough to run your company. That bears repeating: You are not smart enough to run your company.

In other words, you will face unexpected challenges and problems that you aren't smart enough to solve on your own. In a situation like this, being surrounded by "yes men" is the worst possible place to be. Employees that can't or won't think for themselves won't be able to help you get out of a jam. They won't be able to tell you that you're going in the wrong direction. Instead, your own workload will grow exponentially as you find yourself having to tell your employees what to do as opposed to having them figure it out for themselves.

Even worse, you'll find yourself cut off from vital information. You'll find that you don't receive news unless you specifically ask for it. In other words you'll be flying blind with faulty instruments. That's not a situation I'd like to find myself in as an entrepreneur. I would much rather have employees who can take initiative to fix problems and pounce on new business opportunities. I would much rather have employees who tell me that things are going badly without having to be prodded. A "yes-man" is the very antithesis of this.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#27
post #23

In several of the comments, people have asked why entrepreneurs might want to leave the USA, given the common perception that the USA is a great place to do a business. I'm making this comment in response to those questions as an example of an entrepreneur whose left the USA. My reasons for doing this are obviously going to be different than those who would choose not to, so don't get mad. I'm not trying to persuade…

I completely agree with everything you've said, and that's why I'm doing the same thing. My girlfriend is German so I was thinking of trying for a residency permit there next year. You mentioned the government wasn't supportive; do you have any anecdotes on the difficulty (or otherwise) of getting a short-term German residency permit?

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#28

There are gazzilion reasons why people opted to do business back home as opposed to the U.S. and all of them are probably similar decision-making as to choosing your next programming languages: there's no one reason to rule them all. I'm an immigrant. I'm considering heavily to go back home and start a business there (online, offline, doesn't matter). Reasons? cheaper workforce, more power, more connections, cherry p…

>In Iowa, you're nobody. In the [Capital City of your ancestor's land], you're something. Imagine that.

Really? My experience (as an immigrant) has been quite the opposite. Here in America it's a lot easier to become "somebody". You work hard, develop your skills and learn to market yourself. Once you do that, you're either on a upward trajectory at your current firm or you have the prerequisites to find yourself a better position elsewhere.

In my native country (India) family connections still count for quite a great deal, and job switching is still somewhat frowned upon (though attitudes regarding both of the above have improved immensely in the past 20 years). Therefore, you can have skills and a hard work ethic and still find yourself stuck in a not-great situation.

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#29
post #23

In several of the comments, people have asked why entrepreneurs might want to leave the USA, given the common perception that the USA is a great place to do a business. I'm making this comment in response to those questions as an example of an entrepreneur whose left the USA. My reasons for doing this are obviously going to be different than those who would choose not to, so don't get mad. I'm not trying to persuade…

Where are you principally doing business?

Re: Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

#30

There are gazzilion reasons why people opted to do business back home as opposed to the U.S. and all of them are probably similar decision-making as to choosing your next programming languages: there's no one reason to rule them all. I'm an immigrant. I'm considering heavily to go back home and start a business there (online, offline, doesn't matter). Reasons? cheaper workforce, more power, more connections, cherry p…

>In Iowa, you're nobody. In the [Capital City of your ancestor's land], you're something. Imagine that. Really? My experience (as an immigrant) has been quite the opposite. Here in America it's a lot easier to become "somebody". You work hard, develop your skills and learn to market yourself. Once you do that, you're either on a upward trajectory at your current firm or you have the prerequisites to find yourself a b…

My assumption/pre-requisite is that if you can become an immigrant, in a few situations, your family is rich already or successful back home thus you would have connections already and you're probably in mid to high economy class.

I think you can say the same thing too everywhere: Work Hard, Develop Skills, Market yourself.

Marketing seems to be the key point in developing countries probably because the average people are not exposed to certain kind of hypes.

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