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Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

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Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#161

Post by MichaelCollins »

ht85 wrote: post #140
arnvald wrote: post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. And the acquisitions... I've had countless minecraft sessions ruined because of microsoft account / store issues. Don't even get me started on realms and the chat policing bulls…

> The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all.

Heh, try KDE's KRunner. I type 'kt' and it matches ktorrent. But if I type 'kto' it switches to matching "Desktop 8". 'ktor' once again matches ktorrent.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#162

Post by avereveard »

arnvald wrote: post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

Also there was an uptake in integrations that open edge irregardless of what your default browser is, like start menu search results if you happen to have web search enabled in it.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#163

Post by thfuran »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #161
ht85 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. And the acquisitions... I've had countless minecraft sessions ruined because of microsoft account / store issues. Don't even get me started on realms and the chat policing bulls…

> The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. Heh, try KDE's KRunner. I type 'kt' and it matches ktorrent. But if I type 'kto' it switches to matching "Des kto p 8". 'ktor' once again matches ktorrent.

That sounds about like m experience trying to open intellij in windows.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#164

Post by S201 »

ravenstine wrote: post #71

What exactly are these companies supposed to do? Web access really is the meat behind modern OS usage. Say what you want about Microsoft, but that's exactly what they realized when they began shipping Internet Explorer with Windows (and got into hot water over it). Safari can't be deleted from iOS, but aspects of Safari are integral to the OS. As long as someone can use another web browser for actual web browsing, as…

> Maybe Mozilla can knock off the grandstanding, the money wasting, the back patting, and just work on making a competitive browser.

You can have the best product in the market but if the deck is unfairly stacked against you it doesn't matter how good your product is.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#165

Post by honkler »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #109
ravenstine wrote: post #71

What exactly are these companies supposed to do? Web access really is the meat behind modern OS usage. Say what you want about Microsoft, but that's exactly what they realized when they began shipping Internet Explorer with Windows (and got into hot water over it). Safari can't be deleted from iOS, but aspects of Safari are integral to the OS. As long as someone can use another web browser for actual web browsing, as…

> What exactly are these companies supposed to do? Web access really is the meat behind modern OS usage. I mean, Europe used to mandate a selection screen on first boot that would just ask the user what browser to install; that seems pretty reasonable. Failing that, they could let the user actually change their default browser without harassing them or resetting it constantly (Windows) or allow people to actually use…

they should first try to retain their users, before dreaming of switching others.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#166

Post by g_p »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #59
g_p wrote: post #12

One of the next frontiers as a barrier to browser switching will be "software"-backed WebAuthn/FIDO2/"passkeys". If you look at the APIs available on MacOS/iOS at present [0], and how WebAuthn works, you need to "trust" the client-side software to correctly identify the site origin (i.e. protocol, domain, port) and pass it to a physical security key. In the case of a software token, you need to restrict which app(s)…

As long that is true, it's also going to block widespread adoption of this stuff. Terrible usability is just not a great feature from a security point of view: it leads to people working around security measures. I have to support some non technical people in our company once in a while. Trust me, this stuff is way too hard for normal people. People I know that own things like a ubi key are almost without exception I…

I think you're absolutely right - my worry is that while passkeys are very usable, they also effectively create inescapable inertia and friction to ever changing browser or device ecosystem.

Today there is no migration path from one MacOS WebKit browser (Safari) to another (which also has an implementation of PassKey), since the third party browser can't share the same authenticator key.

As you say, all of this is far too complicated for an end user - my suggestions to avoid the problem and migrate only work for tech savvy users that know every site they use. That's maybe 0.1% of users.

My worry if we see adoption of passkeys is that only 0.1% of the browser market becomes contestable, as everyone else is stuck locked into their incumbent browser with no way to enroll their new browser's passkey into the sites they use.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#167

Post by kmeisthax »

dont__panic wrote: post #18
somenameforme wrote: post #15

Without commenting on the claims, it's interesting to consider how times have changed. Microsoft originally lost an antitrust lawsuit [1] over little more than tying Internet Explorer into their OS and not readily including alternatives. They not only lost that case, but the initial judgement was that the company was to be broken up. Microsoft started spending dramatically more money on "lobbying" following that. [1]…

Amazing that 20 years on, the USA has essentially given up on anti-trust tech regulation. Facebook acquired and repeatedly copied its closest competitors, no problem. Adobe buys up its competitors, no problem. Google aggressively pushes Chrome and fails to makes its own websites fully compatible with competitors, carry on. Apple refuses to give users the freedom to run their own apps on their purchased phones, no big…

In the 80s a bunch of federal judges adopted the "consumer welfare" standard, which argued that we should only consider antitrust violations that harm, well... consumer welfare.

Since this was the 80s and Reagan-style free market rhetoric was in fashion, this became the new law of the land.

Problem is, very few antitrust violations actually meet this standard, because most companies aren't buying other companies purely to jack up prices. The harm is a lot more subtle. If you remember the days of "disruptive innovation", that could be looked at as monopolists getting punished for being too large and ignoring new technologies. Now, because antitrust is basically not enforced anymore, incumbents just buy their disruptors and integrate them into the whole. Startups no longer exist to create new products, but to eat up chunks of a big company's M&A budget for that year.

I'm hopeful that Lina Khan turns the ship around on this but it will take a decade, at least.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#168

Post by asddubs »

iggldiggl wrote: post #138
fariszr wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think they should think about maintaining a chromium fork. It will relieve a lot of resources to be spent on other things like user experience, and they will benefit from all the development resources devoted to chromium, while being able to remove anything they don't like, like MV3 limitations on adblockers. I really like what brave is doing, I switched because I lost hope Mozilla is going to do anythin…

> while being able to remove anything they don't like, like MV3 limitations on adblockers. … which might actually not be as easy as it sounds. Sure, as long as Chrome/Blink internally retains MV2 compatibility behind a configuration setting for enterprise customers you job is easy – just hard-code that setting back to enabled for everybody instead of just enterprise users and you're done. However once Google starts r…

not to mention that google still controls the chrome extension marketplace, and will stop accepting mv2 extensions by the end of the year. So not only do you have to maintain the mv2 related code, and keep reintegrating it whenever google moves a bunch of code around (which from what I hear they do quite aggressively) or hard fork, you also need to maintain your own repository of browser extensions, and get developers to actually develop them for your browser specifically, rather than just for chrome, too.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#169

Post by pwinnski »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #23
weikju wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding keychain for password filling, you can choose to disable it in the settings -> passwords -> options. It’s selected by default but if you tap it it will deselect it.

It would be nice if it disabled itself when another password manager is installed...

Oh, please don't! I use both 1Password and keychain for different purposes, and I want access to both. I definitely don't want keychain silently disabling itself just because I installed 1Password!

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#170

Post by kitsunesoba »

tomComb wrote: post #135
kitsunesoba wrote: post #37

While Google, Microsoft, and Apple clearly factor into the equation here (especially Google — when Chrome first came out the marketing for it was a real force to contend with, and they've aggressively pushed Chrome ever since), the other big thing is that Mozilla ceased to be a leader. They started chasing Chrome and put Firefox on the back burner, and now they're reaping what they've sown. I am a huge proponent of w…

Google pushing their product while allowing anyone to easily change default browser on Android is called competition. Somehow though, that is the worst for you, while Apple simply blocking any competition on iOS (everything is Safari under the hood) is fine. The amazing thing is that you say you are a huge fan of engine diversity - exactly what Apple is totally blocking. Not much Firefox can do with their engine when…

My comment said nothing about Safari or iOS, and Google's pushing goes far beyond just Android. Using any Google product in a non-Google browser will trigger a "Download Chrome!" dialog, and that includes things like Google's search which practically everybody uses. It's even present in Gmail, Sheets, etc on iOS, where instead of using the default browser when tapping links it will show a chooser that includes Chrome even when Chrome isn't installed. Furthermore, Chrome is bundled in the installers of various other things.

I'm saying to go ahead and put those regulations in place to force browser choice, but that alone won't save Mozilla. People will switch browsers on iOS in large numbers, but it won't be to Firefox because as I mentioned, to average users it offers nothing that Chrome doesn't. A handful of technically inclined users will start using Firefox on iOS while everybody else switches to Chrome or keeps using Safari.

Firefox needs a differentiator that Joe Q. Public cares about, and I sincerely hope they can come up with something once enforcements have been put in place because otherwise its course will remain unchanged.

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