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Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

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Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#71

Post by ravenstine »

What exactly are these companies supposed to do? Web access really is the meat behind modern OS usage. Say what you want about Microsoft, but that's exactly what they realized when they began shipping Internet Explorer with Windows (and got into hot water over it). Safari can't be deleted from iOS, but aspects of Safari are integral to the OS. As long as someone can use another web browser for actual web browsing, as opposed to something that an app might use as a web view, I really don't see what the big deal is. Not being able to delete apps sucks, but this goes beyond browsers, and is hardly the worst thing any of these companies are up to. Should there be an initiative to create a standard pluggable API for web views that operating systems comply with? Oh boy, let's create yet another worthless committee!

Maybe Mozilla can knock off the grandstanding, the money wasting, the back patting, and just work on making a competitive browser. Also completely remove Pocket and anything else like it.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#72

Post by themadturk »

dont__panic wrote: post #18
somenameforme wrote: post #15

Without commenting on the claims, it's interesting to consider how times have changed. Microsoft originally lost an antitrust lawsuit [1] over little more than tying Internet Explorer into their OS and not readily including alternatives. They not only lost that case, but the initial judgement was that the company was to be broken up. Microsoft started spending dramatically more money on "lobbying" following that. [1]…

Amazing that 20 years on, the USA has essentially given up on anti-trust tech regulation. Facebook acquired and repeatedly copied its closest competitors, no problem. Adobe buys up its competitors, no problem. Google aggressively pushes Chrome and fails to makes its own websites fully compatible with competitors, carry on. Apple refuses to give users the freedom to run their own apps on their purchased phones, no big…

Yes, the US Government pretty much gave up on meaningful anti-trust regulation along about the Reagan era, as they pretty much gave up on a lot of stuff. The Biden administration via FTC Chair Lina Khan have declared they're trying to turn things around, but it's a big ship with a small rudder. We'll see.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#73

Post by dmonitor »

cm2187 wrote: post #63
arnvald wrote: post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

Does the default browser matter that much? I mean how often do you click on a link outside of a browser?

You know that handy dandy search bar that Windows has decided will occupy your taskbar?

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#74

Post by bastardoperator »

arnvald wrote: post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

So, you weren't forced and instead opted out is what you're saying here in your opening sentence?

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#75

Post by freediver »

thriftwy wrote: post #42
bombcar wrote: post #9

Google Chrome is highly successful on Mac and Windows so it’s clear that Microsoft and apple aren’t forcing that hard. Mozilla is just not doing so hot.

Yandex Browser, a custom Chrome build, is doing very well both on desktop and mobile. However, it has a slew of useful features tailored for its audience (perhaps reminding of "big apps" of Asia) while also leveraging all kinds of ways to get installs such as bundling, etc. I'm just not sure what are the selling points of Mozilla Firefox in 2022. They discontinued their plugins to be like Google Chrome and enforce th…

It would be cool if every Chromium clone had a page where they explain how is the browser different to standard Chromium. Many of them feel like rebuilding Chromium with something like sed -i 's/Chrome/MyBrowserName/g'

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#76

Post by Tao3300 »

andy_xor_andrew wrote: post #27

Does Firefox have a future? I'm writing this from Firefox, having used it ever since the days when Firefox releases used to have launch parties, and tabs was the revolutionary killer feature. Let me rephrase the question: does Gecko/Spidermonkey have a future? I think it's clear the Firefox branding will live on, since it is Mozilla's crown jewel. But in today's landscape, you can target WebKit (Apple) and V8/Blink (…

It has a future if their search partners say it does.

Some of whom they are naming in these allegations.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#77

Post by g_p »

howinteresting wrote: post #62
g_p wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I think password managers will (soon enough) implement passkeys. As you say though, the current implementations deliver lock-in "by-design" (but with legitimate reason - you don't want to have an API that shares the AES-256 root key that decrypts passkey keyblobs!) This could all be mitigated with a little bit of tooling (allowing an existing passkey to enrol a new passkey from another device), which would…

I've flagged these concerns to several people involved in Webauthn, privately and publicly, and passkey portability is pretty clearly low-priority (i.e. never going to happen) for them.

This is a shame to see - it's understandable that there are some technical challenges in it, but it does seem possible (via a mutual auth handshake) to introduce portability. Kudos to you for arguing the case though!

Before "cloud keychain" (i.e. software-backed, like Apple's implementation), your only "safe" option was to have 2x hardware tokens, and try to keep one off-site, but still accessible enough you could enrol it on all the sites you use.

I fear with "cloud keychain" Webauthn, we are heading for a world where getting locked out of (or banned from) your "FAMNG" account will lock you out of everything else, to an extent we've not really seen before - no access to your synced keychain secret will prevent you from logging in to everything. Physical tokens remaining interoperable should give technical users an insurance policy against this, but without some kind of portability (i.e. pairing hardware webauthn keys), I fear it won't be practical enough to keep users safe, and independent of the keychain providers.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#78

Post by jacooper »

howinteresting wrote: post #62
g_p wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I think password managers will (soon enough) implement passkeys. As you say though, the current implementations deliver lock-in "by-design" (but with legitimate reason - you don't want to have an API that shares the AES-256 root key that decrypts passkey keyblobs!) This could all be mitigated with a little bit of tooling (allowing an existing passkey to enrol a new passkey from another device), which would…

I've flagged these concerns to several people involved in Webauthn, privately and publicly, and passkey portability is pretty clearly low-priority (i.e. never going to happen) for them.

Great, then I will probably never use it, and anyone who has an iPhone and another windows device.

Or any other mismatched devices ecosystem, the locked in ecosystem dream of apple is only applicable to extremely tiny amounts of people.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#79

Post by cm2187 »

Osmose wrote: post #69
cm2187 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the default browser matter that much? I mean how often do you click on a link outside of a browser?

On desktop there's emails, chat apps, etc. On mobile the default browser is often used for the webview within apps, e.g. on Android I have Firefox doing the rendering for webpages inside other apps' UI, which means I can block ads thanks the uBlock Origin. It happens all the time, for lots of people.

Mobile is different. But on a desktop, most people use webmails, and many chat apps are web based. I barely click any link outside of a browser on a desktop.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#80

Post by Osmose »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #37

While Google, Microsoft, and Apple clearly factor into the equation here (especially Google — when Chrome first came out the marketing for it was a real force to contend with, and they've aggressively pushed Chrome ever since), the other big thing is that Mozilla ceased to be a leader. They started chasing Chrome and put Firefox on the back burner, and now they're reaping what they've sown. I am a huge proponent of w…

The quality of Firefox has nothing to do with the anti-competitive actions of platforms. This affects Vivaldi, Brave, and all the 3rd-party web browsers (or the platform browsers on other platforms, e.g. Chrome on Windows).

Mozilla doesn't make this argument because their browser share is lower than it used to be, but because diversity, not domination, is the goal.

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