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Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

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Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you weren't forced and instead opted out is what you're saying here in your opening sentence?

For a few things (the one thing I'm familiar with is the lock screen if you've left the "show random pretty pictures" option turned on, but I think there are a few more places besides that) Microsoft does force links to open in Edge instead of the default browser.

- Any links from many Microsoft apps (including searches in the Start Menu that silently turn into web searches)

- PDFs (sometimes, even if you don't have Edge set as your default PDF app) (even though Edge is actually the least unusable non-paid PDF viewer for Windows)

Besides that, Edge will randomly reset itself as the default on updates.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#132

What exactly are these companies supposed to do? Web access really is the meat behind modern OS usage. Say what you want about Microsoft, but that's exactly what they realized when they began shipping Internet Explorer with Windows (and got into hot water over it). Safari can't be deleted from iOS, but aspects of Safari are integral to the OS. As long as someone can use another web browser for actual web browsing, as…

> Also completely remove Pocket and anything else like it.

Yeah - hard agree. Pocket feels like a sheer gimmick. It cheapens the experience, and it hurts the trust people have for Firefox when they jam it in your face.

I remember the original Firefox ethos where it was just a browser, and that was awesome.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#133
post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

Keychain is opt-in. If you have it configured on your iPhone, it's because you accepted it when configuring your iPhone for the first time. You had to choice to refuse it - and you still have the possibility to disable it in your iPhone settings.

It's unclear how it works, I received a prompt in Firefox to save my password, and I thought that it was the Firefox browser that would be saving my password however, it turned out to be keychain. Now the keychain message pops on all the time, I will have a look in the settings to see how to disable it.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that the government realized that FAANG makes for better bedfellows than sworn enemies. They can wave economic incentives in front of their face in exchange for international power beyond what other countries can offer. Having Google, Amazon, Apple and Microsoft under your thumb gives you control over ~80% of the internet and <95% of all PII. There is obviously a domestic interest in controlling that, so…

define "the government" -- who and what exactly is controlling this supposed policy?

There's no conspiracy.

Mostly think tanks, policy circles, and White House wonks over every successive Internet-age administration. All segments of the U.S. government pay close attention to, among many people, geopolitical analysis of all stripes, who can help them understand how to remain the world hegemon. The U.S. frequently commissions studies by outfits like Booz Allen Hamilton on geopolitical matters (you can browse the "DoD Reading Room" to read plenty of the these thanks to FOIA requests[0]).

"Breaking them up would hurt the U.S." isn't just a lobbyist argument, it's deeply understood at all levels of the government. The White House absolutely understands that Silicon Valley is part of the U.S.'s soft power, draws plenty of international students to the U.S., and helps the U.S.'s cultural hegemony. It's not just about the most popular social networks and search engine "belonging to them" (though that's obviously important, and an advantage no rational nation would give up); Google and Meta's R&D spending are also huge elements of the U.S.'s "artificial intelligence dominance" over China, and the U.S. will never break them up simply because it sees AI-dominance as one of the most important elements of its geopolitical strategy.

It's easy to get the impression that the government mostly deals with domestic politics; but at its root, it is deeply and overwhelmingly concerned with fundamental strategic questions. The government cares deeply about U.S. universities remaining the world's best; about immigration remaining high (Republican administrations too) so that it can attract as much skilled labor as possible, grow the economy, compete with China's 1.4B population, and avoid an aging population that would decimate the economy for decades.

Policy debates "inside the government" bear very little resemblence to the TV version the American citizenry is obsessed with.

[0]: see, for example, "The Future of Europe", a 177 page evaluation of Europe's future economic, industrial, demographic, and political trends. https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20... After you read it, you'll understand that the "policy debates" the masses are exposed to have very little resemblence with what preoccupies decisionmakers! The government, no matter the administration, is far more rigorous and strategic than people give it credit for.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#135

While Google, Microsoft, and Apple clearly factor into the equation here (especially Google — when Chrome first came out the marketing for it was a real force to contend with, and they've aggressively pushed Chrome ever since), the other big thing is that Mozilla ceased to be a leader. They started chasing Chrome and put Firefox on the back burner, and now they're reaping what they've sown. I am a huge proponent of w…

Google pushing their product while allowing anyone to easily change default browser on Android is called competition.

Somehow though, that is the worst for you, while Apple simply blocking any competition on iOS (everything is Safari under the hood) is fine.

The amazing thing is that you say you are a huge fan of engine diversity - exactly what Apple is totally blocking.

Not much Firefox can do with their engine when iOS is their most important platform by far (note the countries they are strong in). Unless Apple changes policy they isn't much point in FF investing in their engine.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#136
>"Mozilla, the non-profit proprietor of the Firefox browser, has accused Google, Microsoft, and Apple of "self preferencing" and nudging consumers towards using their own browsers."

Is it not odd that that Mozilla is taking a stand against tech giants abusing their position when the giant with largest share of the browser market is the same company that pays them hundreds of millions a dollar a year to be the default search engine on Firefox.[1] Don't they basically survive on this Google money? Don't they basically promote Google with this arrangement?

[1] https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/14/mozilla_google_search...

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#137

Without commenting on the claims, it's interesting to consider how times have changed. Microsoft originally lost an antitrust lawsuit [1] over little more than tying Internet Explorer into their OS and not readily including alternatives. They not only lost that case, but the initial judgement was that the company was to be broken up. Microsoft started spending dramatically more money on "lobbying" following that. [1]…

Amazing that 20 years on, the USA has essentially given up on anti-trust tech regulation. Facebook acquired and repeatedly copied its closest competitors, no problem. Adobe buys up its competitors, no problem. Google aggressively pushes Chrome and fails to makes its own websites fully compatible with competitors, carry on. Apple refuses to give users the freedom to run their own apps on their purchased phones, no big…

> Was there some kind of official policy shift, or did the government just give up?

It's not just government - every single day I'm seeing Americans being directly hostile against free markets and choice. A lot of people (and media) expect and demand that a single corporation builds all of their things and owns all of their data. Plenty of people get outright hostile and dismissive of anything and everything that might create competition with the brand they're religiously following.

Politics is just following the people.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#138
post #90

Does Firefox have a future? I'm writing this from Firefox, having used it ever since the days when Firefox releases used to have launch parties, and tabs was the revolutionary killer feature. Let me rephrase the question: does Gecko/Spidermonkey have a future? I think it's clear the Firefox branding will live on, since it is Mozilla's crown jewel. But in today's landscape, you can target WebKit (Apple) and V8/Blink (…

I personally think they should think about maintaining a chromium fork. It will relieve a lot of resources to be spent on other things like user experience, and they will benefit from all the development resources devoted to chromium, while being able to remove anything they don't like, like MV3 limitations on adblockers. I really like what brave is doing, I switched because I lost hope Mozilla is going to do anythin…

> while being able to remove anything they don't like, like MV3 limitations on adblockers.

… which might actually not be as easy as it sounds. Sure, as long as Chrome/Blink internally retains MV2 compatibility behind a configuration setting for enterprise customers you job is easy – just hard-code that setting back to enabled for everybody instead of just enterprise users and you're done.

However once Google starts ripping out the MV2-related code from the Chrome/Blink code base, all that code suddenly becomes your responsibility to maintain – and from that point on there's always the risk that Google suddenly decides do to some large scale refactoring or internal architectural change that radically conflicts with your attempts to maintain those old features alive.

Once you reach that point, you've then got the choice to either spend ever increasing amounts of effort on maintaining those features on top of the current code base, doing a hard fork and therefore having to suddenly maintain the whole shebang, which would be an even larger effort, or instead giving up and dropping those features after all.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#139
post #130

Google Chrome gained dominance and was not the default on Windows or Mac. Firefox is an Ok product but isn't super compelling for a typical user.

Sorry, but comparing Mozilla to the company that offers the about most visited website ever isn't exactly fair. Google had a lot of opportunities to push Chrome and they did. Doesn't really say a lot about product quality imho

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#140
post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all.

And the acquisitions...

I've had countless minecraft sessions ruined because of microsoft account / store issues. Don't even get me started on realms and the chat policing bullshit.

Github new PR review UI is great on paper yet completely useless to review large PR because of performance issues.

It took me one month to upgrade a zoom account to pro because the checkout would just show a blank page. Oh and I can't stay signed in on zoom.us because I disable "Functional Cookies", yet that's the only website that's ever had an issue, and I'm not using a hardened setup, just vanilla FF.

So much for the modern, developer and open source-friendly narrative.

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