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Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

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Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#421

Post by jeroenhd »

First of all: I don't think you're crazy. I also don't think WhatsApp is the one leaking your data.

My counter argument: I use WhatsApp all the times and nothing I talk about on it ever shows up in my ads. A hefty amount of adblock may help here, as does the fact I live in the EU where the worst tracking is illegal.

Something on your phone is probably leaking data. Most suspect are third party keyboards, accessibility apps, apps with access to your photos and videos, or even Google Assistant. Third party keyboards can easily track what you're typing, accessibility apps can parse what you're saying or typing, and Google Assistant will take a screenshot of your current screen when you invoke it.

Other options are clipboard scanning (i.e. on older operating systems) and perhaps link preview services breaking out of e2e.

Finding what app is selling your information is difficult. For starts, you don't know which device is leaking. Ad companies are smart enough to see the connection between you and your wife. Her search results alone can probably make ads appear on your device!

Also consider the Baader-Meinhoff phenomenon. You can only track special topics if you track the topics of all ads and apply some statistical analysis. If you get blasted with ads all day, you'll notice the ones that you're on the lookout for. Pausing your scrolling through the app to take a screenshot will then reinforce the e-stalkers' algorithms.

If you have two old phones lying around, try repeating this trick with phones that are completely wiped, without any Google account logged in, with firewalls to block anything but WhatsApp from talking to the internet. I bet you'll find that those devices won't generate ads.

Why do I think that? For starters, enthusiasts decompile and analyse WhatsApp APK files all the time, in search for rumours and beta features to report about on tech news sites. If at some point WhatsApp added a secondary information channel about your messages (whose encryption is reasonably proven), reporters would've made a HUGE story out of it. A single line of decompiled code can send tech outlets into a frenzy of Meta accusations and let loose the EU's regulatory commissions for lying to customers. It'd be the scoop of the year!

Personally, I think "Google's keyboard or Instagram's gallery scanner is leaking my data" is a lot more likely than "WhatsApp has never been analysed enough to find the magic leaking code".

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#423

Post by TaylorAlexander »

madeofpalk wrote: post #410
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone wants to try this, a friend sent me one link to a device called Levo which does “herb oil infusion” aka it lets you make weed brownies easily. I clicked the one link my friend sent and now I get ads for Levo constantly in my YouTube adroll. Though I should say this is obviously on Google’s ad network specifically and I have no idea if this applies to other networks.

> I clicked the one link my friend sent and now I get ads for Levo constantly Yes, this retargeting is 'expected' and is not surprising. This is completely different from what OP is describing.

No I realize the differences. I am just saying that if someone wants to see if their encrypted app is resulting in ad serves, they could try discussing this product in encrypted chat only, using the methodology described in the comment I was replying to above.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#424

Post by thescriptkiddie »

Closi wrote: post #272
moralestapia wrote: post #248

(wrt some comments in this thread) Is it so hard to believe that Meta is snooping on WhatsApp conversations? Meta, a company of unprecedented size that was built over monetizing your private data? A company who's been caught in plenty of scandals (like Cambridge Analytic) about this exact sort of thing (violating their users' privacy)? Someone from this community, which generally means educated, tech-literate and sen…

From WhatsApp privacy policy: We limit the information we share with Meta in important ways. For example, we will always protect your personal conversations with end-to-end encryption, so that neither WhatsApp nor Meta can see these private messages.

I hate to break it to you, but a privacy policy is not a legally binding document.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#425

Post by KennyBlanken »

rakoo wrote: post #216
dan-robertson wrote: post #146

I think you partly may just be biased by happening to notice ads more if they fit the topic you sent to your wife or being lenient in deciding if ads meet the categorization. And if you dwell on an ad because it seems to match, you may get more similar ads. Here is how I think you could design a more robust (but less fun) experiment: - Come up with a bunch of topics, write them down on slips of paper, put the paper i…

A simpler protocol to realize that the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon is probably what's happening: - pick said topic, something you never cared about before, talk about it but don't write any messages containing it; - for 1 month record every ad you see about it; - send a message about the topic; - for another month, record every ad you see about it Comparing the number of occurrences will tell you what is happening.

> pick said topic, something you never cared about before, talk about it but don't write any messages containing it;

This does not work. How did you come about the topic? Answer: it was in your brain, because advertising, trends among your peers and social connections, online trends real or astroturfed, etc.

That's why you end up with people thinking their phone is "listening" to them.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#427

Post by bobkazamakis »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #425
rakoo wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simpler protocol to realize that the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon is probably what's happening: - pick said topic, something you never cared about before, talk about it but don't write any messages containing it; - for 1 month record every ad you see about it; - send a message about the topic; - for another month, record every ad you see about it Comparing the number of occurrences will tell you what is happening.

> pick said topic, something you never cared about before, talk about it but don't write any messages containing it; This does not work. How did you come about the topic? Answer: it was in your brain, because advertising, trends among your peers and social connections, online trends real or astroturfed, etc. That's why you end up with people thinking their phone is "listening" to them.

The Brain -- famously incapable of organic thought.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#428

Post by z9znz »

dessant wrote: post #411
brap wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone who has ever worked at a FAANG like company in the last decade, yes, this is actually very hard to believe. Despite the shady image they have, these companies go to great lengths to avoid doing shady things (because ultimately it’s bad for business). Not to mention the hundreds of tech employees that would have to be involved and keep quiet in this type of “conspiracy”. It’s incredibly unlikely, I truly be…

I can imagine you haven't been involved in anything illegal, but I'm sure you've aware of Meta's documented track record of coordinated illegal actions. Do engineering teams just fall head first into a bucket of 2FA phone numbers and start using the data for ad targeting, and nobody bats an eye from the legal department to product managers? Or are they hypnotized to build services for biometric data collection withou…

I think there's a natural bias people have to want to NOT see the bad in the organizations that pay them $$$$.

This is certainly true in a lot of finance.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#429

Post by sschueller »

Closi wrote: post #272
moralestapia wrote: post #248

(wrt some comments in this thread) Is it so hard to believe that Meta is snooping on WhatsApp conversations? Meta, a company of unprecedented size that was built over monetizing your private data? A company who's been caught in plenty of scandals (like Cambridge Analytic) about this exact sort of thing (violating their users' privacy)? Someone from this community, which generally means educated, tech-literate and sen…

From WhatsApp privacy policy: We limit the information we share with Meta in important ways. For example, we will always protect your personal conversations with end-to-end encryption, so that neither WhatsApp nor Meta can see these private messages.

Prove it. Open source the client and open the server for 3rd party apps to use.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#430

Post by z9znz »

spaceywilly wrote: post #354
moralestapia wrote: post #248

(wrt some comments in this thread) Is it so hard to believe that Meta is snooping on WhatsApp conversations? Meta, a company of unprecedented size that was built over monetizing your private data? A company who's been caught in plenty of scandals (like Cambridge Analytic) about this exact sort of thing (violating their users' privacy)? Someone from this community, which generally means educated, tech-literate and sen…

The most plausible explanation is that people are just easy to predict. Might be tough to admit, but that’s actually a much simpler explanation than Facebook having a back door into our messages, which are end-to-end encrypted. As others above me have thoroughly explained, there are numerous ways Facebook could figure out what you’re reading about/listening to/viewing on the internet, which ultimately drives what you…

> The most plausible explanation is that people are just easy to predict. Might be tough to admit, but that’s actually a much simpler explanation than Facebook having a back door into our messages, which are end-to-end encrypted.

I disagree with this to the extent that I would say the exact opposite is true.

Facebook (and others) have proven time and time again that they cannot correctly predict user behavior by locking out or banning users who actually did nothing wrong (because their algorithms predicted that the user was breaking terms of service or might be planning to). This happens over and over, even in cases not so complex as the "photos of my child to send to my doctor".

But on the flipside, Zuckerberg has been documented saying one thing to the public and exactly the opposite in private. Heck, Facebook has had memos and emails leaked where they talked about how they would say one thing in public (and to regulators) while doing the opposite secretly.

I believe that Facebook cheats and breaks agreements (and laws) in multiple directions all the time, often willfully. They've even been caught cheating their own ad customers by intentionally overstating the effectiveness and target accuracy of their ads.

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