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Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

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Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#401

Post by johncalvinyoung »

Maximus9000 wrote: post #356
rakoo wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simpler protocol to realize that the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon is probably what's happening: - pick said topic, something you never cared about before, talk about it but don't write any messages containing it; - for 1 month record every ad you see about it; - send a message about the topic; - for another month, record every ad you see about it Comparing the number of occurrences will tell you what is happening.

It also has to be a topic that advertisers would pay to target you with. You can't talk about something super obscure that advertisers don't care about - like steam engines.

There are assuredly advertisers for steam-engine-adjacent products. Memorabilia, experiences/outings, conventions, models, books, artwork, games.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#402

Post by AJ007 »

daqhris wrote: post #365
xerxesaa wrote: post #256

As someone who has actually worked on end to end encryption at Meta, I can tell you I am not aware of anything where the company reads your WhatsApp messages - either in transit or device. The company takes fairly serious measures to ensure it cannot even accidentally infer such contents. I don't know what is happening in this specific case. Perhaps the ads came from some other similar search queries. Perhaps they ca…

Thanks for your explanation. I didn't have in mind the scenario of a keyboard logging user inputs besides the normal functionality of WhatsApp. I find this theory to be very plausible. Not at all happy with Meta's privacy policy, but I agree that it is worth considering other threats. From using a VPN that logs all incoming and outgoing traffic (NetGuard) on an Android One device, I've noticied that the default Googl…

The third party keyboard apps are a big question for the OP.

Another consideration, there are companies that track and sell geolocation data. It's "anonymized" but so precise you know the street address a user resides at. It is not a stretch to consider "anonymized" retargeting from keyboard inputs.

I was dismissive of it in the past, as comments voted higher here are. However I've seen enough weird ads show up within minutes of making jokes about obscure topics that I suspect there is something going on.

The piece that might be missing here is third parties collecting signals, "anonymizing" them, and then ads get re-displayed through Facebook, Google, etc. It may not be the major ad platforms doing it directly. In theory this should be harder now with the iOS tracking restrictions.

For the skeptical, consider Avast's Jumpshot. Here millions of users thought they were protecting themselves when their raw browsing stream was being sold live to third parties. I They aren't the only company that has done that. https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/30/21115326/avast-jumpshot-s...

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#403

Post by rini17 »

brap wrote: post #398
moralestapia wrote: post #248

(wrt some comments in this thread) Is it so hard to believe that Meta is snooping on WhatsApp conversations? Meta, a company of unprecedented size that was built over monetizing your private data? A company who's been caught in plenty of scandals (like Cambridge Analytic) about this exact sort of thing (violating their users' privacy)? Someone from this community, which generally means educated, tech-literate and sen…

For anyone who has ever worked at a FAANG like company in the last decade, yes, this is actually very hard to believe. Despite the shady image they have, these companies go to great lengths to avoid doing shady things (because ultimately it’s bad for business). Not to mention the hundreds of tech employees that would have to be involved and keep quiet in this type of “conspiracy”. It’s incredibly unlikely, I truly be…

The employees obviously are told the functions and APIs that they are implementing have a completely legit use case. That is not hard to believe at all and was the case in Cambridge Analytica scandal, for example.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#404

Post by thatoneguytoo »

brap wrote: post #398
moralestapia wrote: post #248

(wrt some comments in this thread) Is it so hard to believe that Meta is snooping on WhatsApp conversations? Meta, a company of unprecedented size that was built over monetizing your private data? A company who's been caught in plenty of scandals (like Cambridge Analytic) about this exact sort of thing (violating their users' privacy)? Someone from this community, which generally means educated, tech-literate and sen…

For anyone who has ever worked at a FAANG like company in the last decade, yes, this is actually very hard to believe. Despite the shady image they have, these companies go to great lengths to avoid doing shady things (because ultimately it’s bad for business). Not to mention the hundreds of tech employees that would have to be involved and keep quiet in this type of “conspiracy”. It’s incredibly unlikely, I truly be…

I completely agree (as another employee of FAANG). It's ridiculously hard to do anything against policy once it's set, and trust me, the policies are set. Media overplays a lot of things which aren't just there.

The sad reality is people are very predictable, even with basic data.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#405

Post by hbn »

RC_ITR wrote: post #324
dan-robertson wrote: post #146

I think you partly may just be biased by happening to notice ads more if they fit the topic you sent to your wife or being lenient in deciding if ads meet the categorization. And if you dwell on an ad because it seems to match, you may get more similar ads. Here is how I think you could design a more robust (but less fun) experiment: - Come up with a bunch of topics, write them down on slips of paper, put the paper i…

These kind of stories are always fun to analyze using the Socratic method. -How did you learn about the product? -Have you ever searched for it? -Did a friend of yours tell you about it? Do you think they searched for it? -Are a lot of ads for it playing on TV channels you like? Could instagram know you like those TV channels? -Is it something your neighbors got? Do you think there has been a spike in shipments of th…

I also have a theory that sometimes when people say "we were talking about and I never even typed it into my phone or anything, and suddenly I started seeing ads for it the next day!" that the person in the story may not have looked up , but someone else in the conversation might have Googled it or browsed an Amazon listing or something and they have some kind of connection in their ad profiles whether it be that they know these 2 people interact a lot, they're in the same geolocation, same wifi network/IP address, etc.

I'm just not convinced of the always on microphones in phones listening for and processing every single thing considering how much battery drain that would cause, whether the processing is done on device or they're sending all that data to a server to be processed.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#406

Post by LeonTheremin »

dilippkumar wrote: post #393

I would love to see a control channel in this experiment here. Pick two topics every time. Send one topic to your wife on Whatsapp. Write paper messages to your wife about the other topic and give it to her. Track how often you see advertisements for topics in both channels. A significant difference in any one channel will be worth sharing.

Prediction: they will still see ads for the topics shared in writing because the surveillance being done is based on recording the inner speech of everyone with microwave imaging and machine learning.

Encryption is useless against advanced covert radars. Big Tech knows and benefits by lying by omission.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#407

Post by criddell »

gusgus01 wrote: post #397
criddell wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always assumed it’s because of the association of 14 with 14 carat gold.

Interestingly, I've always seen it as any number of quick math problems, not just ones that equal 14, and it consistently works too.

12 year old me was not much of a scientist. I don't think I ever tried any number other than 14...

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#409

Post by pfortuny »

Closi wrote: post #272
moralestapia wrote: post #248

(wrt some comments in this thread) Is it so hard to believe that Meta is snooping on WhatsApp conversations? Meta, a company of unprecedented size that was built over monetizing your private data? A company who's been caught in plenty of scandals (like Cambridge Analytic) about this exact sort of thing (violating their users' privacy)? Someone from this community, which generally means educated, tech-literate and sen…

From WhatsApp privacy policy: We limit the information we share with Meta in important ways. For example, we will always protect your personal conversations with end-to-end encryption, so that neither WhatsApp nor Meta can see these private messages.

What does “conversation “ mean in that text.

I can perfectly mean just the audio exchanges when both parties talk.

Also: E2E does not imply necessarily that they do not know the key.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#410

Post by madeofpalk »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #390
rakoo wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simpler protocol to realize that the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon is probably what's happening: - pick said topic, something you never cared about before, talk about it but don't write any messages containing it; - for 1 month record every ad you see about it; - send a message about the topic; - for another month, record every ad you see about it Comparing the number of occurrences will tell you what is happening.

If anyone wants to try this, a friend sent me one link to a device called Levo which does “herb oil infusion” aka it lets you make weed brownies easily. I clicked the one link my friend sent and now I get ads for Levo constantly in my YouTube adroll. Though I should say this is obviously on Google’s ad network specifically and I have no idea if this applies to other networks.

> I clicked the one link my friend sent and now I get ads for Levo constantly

Yes, this retargeting is 'expected' and is not surprising. This is completely different from what OP is describing.

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